Posted 11 years ago
Chrisnp
(310 items)
I think that among the spin-offs of the German 1888 Commission Rifle, the Chinese Type 88 Hanyang Arsenal rifle should be listed among the most successful. Developed at the end of the 19th century, the rifle remained in use through WWII, and even saw action early in the Korean War. Well over a million of these were made from about 1895 until the 1940s.
The type 88 came about when the Qing Dynasty was trying to modernize its army. In 1895 the Imperial arsenal began producing copies of the German 1888 commission rifle, but with a conventional stock and hand guard instead of the metal barrel shroud. The Chinese Empress’ soldiers were armed with this rifle during the Boxer Rebellion. They were still in use when the Dynasty fell in the revolution of 1911, and they were used by both sides during the clashes between the Nationalists and Communists in the 1930s and 40s. The Chinese used them against the Japanese in WWII, along with the newer Chiang Kai-shek Rifle, which was itself a copy of the German 98 Mauser. Some of these were even in the hands of Chinese soldiers when they crossed the border into in Korea in 1950.
I bought a couple of these Type 88s back in the 1980s, when China began to enjoy some capitalism, and somebody realized that all those old rifles still stored away in government warehouses could be turned into some quick cash by selling them to crazy American gun lovers. The Hanyang arsenal marking on mine is still visible on the receiver, but it is too faint to check the date of manufacture, which would appear there in Chinese characters. The stock is stamped with characters that translate to “militia” plus some red paint that might include the number 15.
Ammo: The Type 88 rifle was chambered for the early German .318 bore 8x57mm cartridge, which continued to be used in China till 1935. It is possible that some may have been adapted for the modern 8x57S cartridge that the Chinese used in the Chiang Kai-shek Rifle, but the bore of my rifle slugs to the earlier .318 bore. I have not fired this weapon.
This looks familiar. I have heard the Chinese made an unlicensed version of this rifle and this is it. Thank you for the history lesson.
Thanks again. You seem to be on top of this era of weapons & adding a lot to my knowledge. Is there a known reason for the "S" after "8X57"?
Thanks fortapache. I love that you posted your Turkish 88 a few days ago. It's like we are on an '88 theme. Actually, I didn't know what agreements China had with Germany over the production of the '88, but I am not surprised there would be none. When the German commission created the '88, they didn't pay attention to Mannlicher and Mauser patents, so they didn't have much room to complain.
Blunder, always a pleasure to see your name. The S = "Spitzgeschoss", or spitzer, which had the .323 diameter ammo. This is my favorite era of firearms development, from the introduction of smokeless powder till the turn of the century, everyone was developing new weapons and many were still around for WWI. it was an exciting time!
Technically, the two rounds were "8x57J" and "8x57JS" - but I can't recall what the J stood for. Possibly the German word for jacketed?
I've tried to find out what the "J" stands for without success.
I found it! It's a mis-transliteration! In German Gothic script, the capitol "I" closely resembles a capitol "J". The original "I" stood for "Infantrie". While spying on the Germans, U.S. Military Intelligence supposedly made the error, and it spread from there to become standard nomenclature. This info from Cartridges of the World by Frank Barnes.
Good show that Chrispn. between my German girlfriend & Bing-translate, we couldn't come up with anything that was appropriate. Good detective work & another mystery solved! You're good! Only the CIA or military intelligence could screw up something so simple. Well, maybe a few other U.S. gov't. departments.
A bit embarrassing for me. I'm a retired military intelligence officer.
I think he wants you delete the "drive by" post. I have had an adult beverage or two myself tonight.
Back to being on topic what would be the proper bayonet for this rifle?
Hope I haven't deleted the wrong stuff.
fortapache, I assume some bayonets were made for the Hanyang prior to 1907, but the bayonet I know of for this rifle is referred to as Chinese Model 1907. It looks like a typical knife bayonet of the era, but has a double edged blade like the British pattern 1888s. China also imported a variety of Belgian bayonets in the 1920s.
Thanks for the love vanskyock24, geo26e, blunder, aghcollect, officialfuel, fortapache and stelios.
You deleted the 1 about needing a driver for "drive-bys". I still need a driver!
Thanks for the love AntigueToys and pw-collector.
Some of the "usual suspects" might not have seen my firearms post from Wednesday because they were not in the military category. Fear not, they just had to be posted in the general category this week.