Posted 10 years ago
BHock45
(807 items)
This is how the whole cabinet is constructed with through cut joints like the ones above.
Picture 1: The right hand door, in the open position
Picture 2: A close up of the joint seen in the previous image
Picture 3: The backside of one of the drawers
Picture 4: A close up of one of the drawer joints (like the one in the previous picture)
fhr, it looks like some of the mortised joints have square wooden pins, others have no pins at all.
This looks very old BH..... I would be extremely excited to find something like this. The construction is wonderful. I hope it's not a reproduction but so far it looks incredible.
I am not sure at the moment if I am more excited or more confused. I nave built and repaired a good many doors and seen many, many others do the same. The combination of cuts at a single joint are not something you see anymore. The pins at the tenon are there for a very good reason but those are not just drilled and driven, there is a special technique for making that joint and you will be long dead and gone before it pops apart. I used these joints making my raised panel drawer fronts for our bedroom dressers. I need to get on my desk top computer and download these pictures for a closer look. I intended to mow the lawn but I guess it will wait.
mikelv thanks for the comment, the reason I bought this was because of the construction. I admire it at least once a day.
fhjr, I understand, I have to cut the lawn today too. Please take your time. Although I am excited to hear what you think.
I am going to look at it again, actually it is so large, I need another person to help me get to the back. Literally the thing is 5 foot tall and at least just as wide....I did somehow get it into the house by myself, I was so excited I think I blacked out. Later!
Ok, I am back and I could get super long winded here but will try to keep it short. You continue to amaze me as much as this piece frustrates me and impresses me at the same time. After seeing the inside, side and face of the door joinery I realized I hadn't seen this joinery in so long I forgot what it is. It is much more than a normal tenon and once again you have two joints in one which defies modern joinery.
Now for the bad news the joinery would most likely make this a reproduction. Don't cry just yet. This type piece is Japanese construction and used to be called Ming Impression as it was fashioned after items made around the year 1580. I suspect you aren't crying at this point. The construction shows a through tenon which is flat and flush on the inside but the center stile has the mitered spear point let into the rail on the face of the door. That is a double joint like the mitered tenon on the top. Another interesting point is the dimension of the stock used in these doors. This thing must be massive if all the materials correspond to the doors. Making and fitting these joints takes hours. These aren't something you run through a machine and pop together. They can be made with machines today but the front spear point would be a separate strip of wood added as a finish for looks. Although I doubt you will see many.
It is impossible to be sure from pictures. The type joints are pretty easy to identify but they help with age because of the degree of craftsmanship and type tools required to make them. The through tenon rather than a blind tenon helps as does the dimension of the stock. If I were bold enough to make a guess based on pictures I would say this was probably made before 1860 and very possibly well before then.
The square pegs (if they are wood) tell their own story. If this is a modern reproduction you have more money than brains because building it would drive the cost sky high. I better shut the heck up before everyone falls asleep.
Raining so I got out of mowing again.
PS: That was my short version above.
fhrjr, you are certainly not putting me to sleep. I am amazed. I found this piece in a used furniture store. They carry junk furniture, laminate wood, people's old stuff. This piece was not expensive. Which makes me think it could be older. I was thinking the same thing: with the amount of work and effort put into making this, if it was made within the last 10 or 20 years with intentions to look old, it would have been a few thousand dollars.
are you confident in saying that it is Japanese?
I am confident in saying the joinery was commonly used by them. I never did much in terms of studying other Asian cultures woodworking techniques. I had the need long ago to reproduce a joint I was positive came from them and had to do a bit of research. That was before computers and the Internet. I doubt you will ever know where this piece was actually made but somewhere out there, there has to be another one. One simple thing you could do is carry pictures of it, even on your phone and visit Japanese cafes and stores and see if you can find someone who is ancient that might know the piece. Also, there is a guy, I think in England who specializes in Japanese woodworking. I may have his site or may have to look for it but I would bet he could identify it. Let me poke around a bit and see if I can locate his web site.
Thanks a million fhr!
idcloisonne - That is what you said, however you were basing you opinion on outward appearance which is easy to reproduce to make an item appear older than it is. I generally prefer to consider all of the parts and especially the joinery as opposed to simply looking at a picture of the face of an item. Bhock is great about posting photo's to help identify and item and that is what makes going the extra mile for him enjoyable. Identifying an item from a picture is often difficult so trying to qualify a statement with more than opinion based on outward appearance can make a difference. I am sure I will spend a few more hours on this one because of my own interest in it for the joinery.
Great work fhrjr2!
Asian furniture is not an area that typically interests me, but the joinery work on this one DOES make it interesting.
scott
Where did you get the idea this was a home furnishing?
1. This was never used in a home, as you suggested above.
2. It was never used in a Pagoda or Temple.
3. This site doesn't care who you are and saying "I am very aware that some people have more sway here probably due to their gender". Is an insult to all members.
You obviously have calibrated eyeballs, your profit formula and a know it all attitude. Stop looking in home furnishings and get a view of shop fixtures how they are built, the dimensions of the stock and the finish applied to keep out moisture. Start with something simple like an antique herb or tea chest. Look at the construction and dimensions. You may have a formula and calibrated eyeballs but I suspect you have a bit to learn. Perhaps you need to take the reins and direct this discussion. I will sit in the background and learn from you, I'm never to old to learn.
"I am very aware that some people have more sway here probably due to their gender"
You made your statement not the members.
Let it drop and move on.
I assume that rant wasn't directed at me. I took your best advise and moved on. Although I will sit back and laugh. Go for it baby.
what do you mean by reconstructed id?
fhrjr2, I don't mean to be too much of a burden, but check this one out, I think it is exciting too.....
http://www.collectorsweekly.com/stories/128080-more-mortising-continued-from-oak-chair