Posted 10 years ago
lostone777
(45 items)
I am posting this for a friend who said his uncle gave him this dagger. Supposedly the photo card depicts the man who owned the dagger before a soldier removed it from him. I was just wondering if someone can tell me what kind of dagger this is, and if it looks authentic.
Maybe someone can also help translate the card that accompanied the dagger?
Thanks!
Without digging into research Riply, I thought this was the usual army dress dagger?
PS: Also, if correct for the owner, his uniform is not Luftwaffe but army.
Agree with buss ARMY dagger. The pommel and cross guard are the key features.
TONS of fakes out there.
scott
Scott, I'm so unaccustomed to people agreeing with that I think I am going into shock!
Don't worry-- it probably won't happen again anytime soon!
scott
Scott, I appreciate the encouragement! LOL!
As for the document, although the photo is mostly illegible, I’m pretty sure by the format and what I can read that this is a death card. If you do a google images search for “WWII German Death Cards” you can see what I mean by the familiar format.
Death Cards are an old funeral tradition in Germany, and I have several memorializing German KIA from the First World War. The cards were handed out as keepsakes to the family and friends of the deceased, usually at the funeral, but also sent to those who could not attend. The back of the card usually lists his name, rank, unit, home town, and date of death and other particulars, sometimes with a consoling poem or scripture verse.
Chris
@ripley ... I know nothing about nothing, but when i read the description, the poster says the story is that this was "removed" from a soldier ... in battle ? ... Then if so, how does a picture get matched up with the dagger at some point ?
Once again, i have no opinion about this, but just an observation in the text .
Ok, thanks. I was just thinking about it ... I have no opinion about the dagger ( no knowledge on the subject or most subjects) ... I just thought maybe this photo does not go with the dagger ... "Oh you took this from my relative ? How would you like a picture of him to go along with that ? " Is not logical.
Ok, thanks. I can not get in the middle of the discussion specifically about the dagger or photo. Just wanted to mention what I observed in the description ...
I find that sometimes I can be so involved in a project, that I get stuck at some point. Either I have to step away and come back to it, or often someone from a different department will see I am struggling and they will put a fresh pair of eyes on the issue and notice something that was right in front of me all the time.
Very cool whatever the argument!
Every Luftwaffe breast eagle I have ever seen is a flying eagle.
Agree AGAIN with buss. It is an ARMY dagger-- the POMMEL and CROSS GUARD are the key elements.
Not sure what riply is citing-- maybe an item # would help.
Also to be clear, I made no comments about the uniform in the photo, but agree with russ that the story makes no sense.
scott
Scot's right. It's Army. No doubt. Although there are variations in coloration, engraving and finish, it is also true that there were standard patterns for both Army and Luftwaffe, and this is the Army pattern.
Ripley206, if you scroll through the website that you posted, you will see both Luftwaffe and Army patterns, correctly identified. You'll see that in each case the Army dagger pommel and cross guard look like this one, and the Luftwaffe pommel and cross guards do not look like this one.
Blunder is also correct that the standard Luftwaffe and Army eagles were different. dagger manufacturers did not make those sort of stylistic choices.
Rip, time we go on a 1st name basis. You can just call me BB2. Lot shorter. I also answer to some other names but they aren't allowed on CW.
I appreciate all of your responses. I wanted to chime in, but the powers that be at my work frown upon non-work related internet usage. Anyway, my friend said his uncle, whom he hasn't talked to for many years, gave this to him.
The uncle gave him the ** impression** that the info card depicted the man who owned the dagger and that it was I guess what you might call the "capture paper" or death paper for the owner for the dagger. I'm not saying this is CORRECT, but this is how my friend remembers/interpreted it. (this is going back ten years or so). His uncle could have been a complete kook, or my buddy might have misunderstood him. Well, now he has two young kids and he wanted to find some info to see if he can sell this thing because he doesn't want the kids to get ahold of it, and said he's always found it a little creepy anyway, being that it has a Nazi connection.
Sorry I don't have more info, or a better photo at this time (it was a spontaneous thing that he asked me to find some info to help him sell it, so the photos were all taken with my cruddy phone-camera), but there it is. If I get the chance, I will post a better shot of the writing to see if someone can translate it, or if the name means anything to someone.
This illustrates what is often seen with antiques-- a story that really doesn't pass muster.
With militaria, it is common to find "stories". Some are an honest mistake or a forgotten/ embellished family tale; while others are a case of deceit (I am NOT saying this item fall into that category) with the goal of increasing VALUE and DESIRABILITY.
CAVEAT EMPTOR: "Buy the item NOT the story".
scott
Someone here is old and has a lick of common sense. Certainly not me but listening and learning can be an advantage.
So what do we have? I see an obvious army dress dagger and a pic of a soldier with an army breast eagle. As stated, these patterns were laid out by regulations. This is not something that comes up for a vote. Let's all agree on something! You know my opinion & I stand by it.
Never any doubt-- Army dagger.
This one was easy!
My caveat was about the STORY associating the TWO items with ONE German soldier and his death.
scott
You know I agree with you Scott on both counts. Got to put the whole tail back on that plane, so will be out of touch probably for a few days. Should have taken pics! Well, when all else fails, - read the instructions! Whenever I fly on the airlines, I think, It's people like me who keep these things in the air. Scary thought that! LOL
I am not big on provenance myself. It is the quality of the item.
To me there is nothing better than provenance on an item. Actual provenance (DOCUMENTED History) of an item usually will enhance value.
Fakers know this as well, so many times the "stories" are created.
scott
I'll spend considerably more for an item with solid provenance than one without any.
Oh, and I do document any oral history that comes with an item, but oral histories are not solid provenance, especially when it comes from a seller who got the item from a friend who got it from his brother-in-law who's father brought it back from the war with this great tale he told. I just write it up as an oral history that was passed along.
http://quanonline.com/military/military_reference/german/blades/army/armyhistory.php
http://www.militaryantiquesmuseum.com/military_antiques.php?step=20&searchunder=prodid&searchfor=11836
This is for lostone777
Very nice reference
By Jove (whatever that means), I think we are coming around! Now the breast pocket eagle (adler). It is not Luftwaffe, but army. Agreed?
Yes, that's a great reference. Now I just need him to compare it to those photos and also see if his dagger has any markings on it. Thanks!