Posted 9 years ago
PickerX
(13 items)
I found this on my Great Uncles desk in Culpepper. Considering some of the other things he had around, this is legit. The coin on top of the Swagger Stick is from 1907-1908.
Somebody's moment from the Haitian Campaign?
Can somebody tell me more? Would love to hear about it.
I live in the Islands & love history. Been to Haiti maybe a doz. times & as an "Ex-pat" & knowing the truth, I avoid taking deep looks into Amer. intervention in the regions, as a lot of shameful things have been done. Of course, you are only shown the "rosy" side up there. As an American, when you start delving into some parts of those times, often the smiles start fading, so I avoid delving when I see that happening. Sad, - but true. There are always 2 sides to things. Problem is, up there, you only hear one. It gets confusing fast.
this is an interesting piece! but i have to jump into the ring w/ blunder here. some of us do delve in, and the info is readily available on the web, and to a lesser extent on the airwaves and cables too. although it's easy to get caught up in loathing for the powerful, selfish, and ignorant things our country has done, we needn't forget that there is not a country on earth, which has not been corrupted to the bone by it's wealth. and you can reverse that too: the more wealth there is, the more deeply corrupt and ignorant the country's policies. the bloodbath continues, and we need more people to delve into this information and NOT look away when it gets painful. knowledge=power too.
It for sure represents some horrible history. However, delving into that history is EXACTLY what we need to do so that the "rosy" side of things is not the only side we hear.
Well, in the case of Haiti - Spain, France, the Dominican Republic, US of A, and of course a parade of their own despotic leaders have been kicking around the people there since Columbus landed.
As the hemisphere's second oldest independent democracy, you's think we'd stretch out our hand to them. Oh wait - they were African slaves that overthrew their white owners...Um, perhaps not a good idea since we were still owning people at the time.
Don't even get me started on our "assistance" to the Haitian people since then.
Chris
I'm glad I didn't open a can of worms. All my time spent there was under "Baby Doc's" rule & can report that There seemed to be no crime or drugs under the strict laws & punishment. All the stories from friends who have visited since the last U.S. invasion report that that has all changed for the worse. A shame.
I understand crime was down under Hitler and Mussolini too
Ooops!
[Godwin's law (or Godwin's rule of nazi analogies)[1][2] is an internet adage asserting that "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1"[2][3]—? that is, if an online discussion (regardless of topic or scope) goes on long enough, sooner or later someone will compare someone or something to Hitler or Nazism.]
Chris, Re: #6, If you exclude the gov't's. from the study.
Well, what do we actually know about swagger sticks and, in particular, this swagger stick's role in the history other than it representing brutal colonialism?
Actually PickerX, imperialism (which American deny & feel uncomfortable even being around the term) is more appropriate. It's rich with history and a beautiful collector's item. Let the smoke clear & then I ask for more detail. OK, how long is it & can you supply pix of the rest, including the bottom tip? It's worth a bit of money because it doesn't have the negative connotation with Americans that, say, Gaddafi's swagger stick would. Maybe he paid some poor Haitian 10 ¢ to make it for him and the guy was really happy for awhile. These things are are all relative in diff. ways. Nice piece though & a real piece of history. Hope you don't think we kicked you around. As time passes, the truth surfaces. Sadly, too late. Actually, I've had custom furniture made in Haiti at prices that now (almost) embarrass me!
Yes, Imperialism is the appropriate term for American involvement. I am not sure if this is an American piece, though. I will get some more pics and details soon.
BTW, I don't feel kicked around at all. I understand that this item represents human suffering. There is no doubt that it must bring some strong associations and feelings. Sorry if that is the case. The only thing that offends me is how the comments come across. They seem to make the assumption that I fit into a particular American stereotype, one of sheltered ignorance etc.... I am not that American. Lets move on from that.
I was hoping for information on swagger sticks and how this one may have been related to Haiti during this time. What kind of person would have used this? Was he American or French? Is this a common item that occupying soldiers would bring home with them or is it unique? How unique is it really? I really do appreciate the data that has been shared and will get some better pictures soon.
Thanks!
PickerX, I like your attitude! Maybe we got side-tracked. Maybe it belonged to Papa Doc or Baby Doc, or whoever. Let's start over & take an objective look at this. I had advance knowledge of the last Amer. invasion & connections in Haiti and was trying to get my investor to back me in advance, to buy the 6- P51 Mustangs they had in their airforce. Made it to The Dominican Republic before my "trusted" backer, backed out on me. I later was informed than an Amer. general secured them for himself. Wonder if his purchase put another grain of rice on any Haitian's plate? I've forgotten more than most people know about our region. But then, I wander again. (I'm good at that!). Maybe the date of the coin reflects something? Any idea what kind of wood? When you fly over Hispanola, there is an old stone wall dividing the 2 countries & the Haitian side is barren.
Yes, I think we got sidetracked.
First, are you sure it's a swagger stick and not a walking stick? Swagger sticks are shorter.
The coin is probably your best bet for figuring the earliest date of the item, but the date is almost certainly on the other side. I'm not a coin expert, but google images show a similar 20 centime coin in the 1881-1894 series. Of course the stick could have been made 20 or 30 years after the coin.
Swagger sticks were not of much interest to American military folks in the last half of the 20th century, and if it has anything to do with American military involvement, it would likely be the American occupation of 1915-34. There was some American interest in them during and after WWI, mostly with the US Marines. Marines also happened to be the occupying force in Haiti in 1915-34.
The French had been kicked out in the revolution of 1808, and the coin is definitely post-revolution. Although the French tried to get the country back a couple times, I don't recall any large or long military presence except under the UN in more recent times.
My personal feeling is that this may have belonged to one of the Haitian juntas that ruled over the years. There have been many, and many of the military and quasi-military members of those juntas had a penchant for display.
On the other hand, if it's long enough to be a walking stick, it could have belonged to one of Haiti's wealthy 2% that also liked to flaunt their position. Or to a foreign investor.
Paragraph 3 - I meant interest in swagger sticks, not Haiti
I just re-read your post, and I see you've already dated the coin - oops! sorry!
Thank you all for your input. I have come to the conclusion that this stick was owned by a Marine who was probably there during the occupation of 1915.
Blunderbuss2, I can only imagine the stories that you must have from your experiences!
PickerX. I know people in high places, & High people in places. Both come in handy, but the latter especially! We have good intelligence & I knew more than a month before the last U.S. invasion. "We are here to help you!". That's why we have guns!! LOL!!
lmao ....
Glad you liked that Roy. Did you ever pick up that case of beer I left for you at the store at the bottom of your mountain? LOL!