Posted 9 years ago
retro597
(43 items)
Here are 3 smaller works but in the finest condition I have ever found pre-1900 glass. The mark is the obvious Krystallglasfabrik Freiherr von Poschinger which drove many a glass collector insane for years. Note the Japonism décor in the bottle vase and the trees painted on which is so art nouveau with Daum and the rest. That was my original Post. At this time and through further research I believe I am on a more true path as I found the exact pattern on the grey stripe on a marked R Tischer Karlsbad piece. Once I have three more shape, pattern and or other documentary evidence I will Then make my call. I hoped to stir the pot in my original post and and get some type of clue. Thanks to Harrach's post. I turned to Karlsbad directly. One can now see where this mark resembles a R T K. Though Tischer used a stamp which had far more flourish, this may have been their early mark. The glass is similar white or sand colored. The japonism décor is the same and similar on pieces. We shall see.
What a lovely collection! The enamel work on these is very nice. Thanks so much for sharing them! I am going to have to mention it (someone probably will), but I have always understood that the Pk mark as shown on your vases isn't actually for Poschinger, but an as yet unknown Bohemian refiner? I'd love to hear your take on this. Thanks! :)
Have to agree with what Michelleb007 has written including it is a lovely vase...:-)
Michelleb007...The reason I say the mark is Poschinger is due to the numerous British Glass sites and other European sites which list it as such prior to Poschinger using a paper label pre-1900. Around 1900 they changed to a different marking system and then went to a paper label. Also, the fact that only Poschinger made the variety of glass which it is found on. From enameled works to Nachtman style cut glass. No unidentified maker could be as prolific in just 2 or 3 generations and go unnamed. I just find that illogical. I have seen so many similarly marked pieces over the years. The British and European sites have the mark identified as most likely and not definitive.
Just for the sake of the discussion, here is a link to another Pk marked vase here on CW: http://www.collectorsweekly.com/stories/81407-signed-pk--any-information-please
Thanks for your thoughts on Pk being Poschinger's early mark. I personally will still side with the Pk mark being that of a Bohemian refiner rather than Poschinger, until I see examples of the shapes and varieties of glass that are solely linked to them by the European sites. I wonder if they have some old Poschinger archives they are using as reference? But whoever we think made them, your vases are beautiful. They are in such good condition, too! The gold trim and enamel work look untouched. Such a nice collection! :)
Pretty glass, but unfortunately there is actually no verifiable evidence that links this mark to Poschinger. It has been studied and discussed for a very long time among some of the best glass researchers in Europe, the UK, and the US, with no link to indicate a source that can be, or has ever been identified.
There may be British sites and some others listing the mark as PK, but there is nothing factual that has ever been found or presented anywhere that actually proves with evidence that it is true. Generally sites making those claims are selling sites applying a"Name" to what is otherwise unidentifiable glass. There are also a large number of sites linking massive amounts Tango glass to Michael Powolny for Loetz, and that is also untrue, but persistent none the less.
Someday it may be solved, but for now it is considered among most long term researchers and collectors to be unknown, and most likely of Bohemian origins.
As far as a mark going unidentified as to source for a long time, this one is one of the more recognized and discussed marks that falls into that category.
Actually the sites are British, French, and Austrian glass collector sites and not sales sites. Logic is the only reason I agree with them not empirical evidence. The diversity of wares and quality and no other Poschinger during the late Victorian age other than the numeral and H pattern marks. After all, they were heading for the paper label. Like I said these sites say probable and not absolute. These wares would compete with Bristol Glass for the most part and then changed to a more quality work. I have seen thousands with this mark in multiple styles and types. For some small factory or unknown one just seems illogical.
A good amount of accepted glass knowledge is based on empirical evidence, which follows a very strict line of logic if applied properly.
Unfortunately, there is no evidence at all, either empirical or logical, which indicates who used the mark, and some of the best glass minds in the world have tried to figure it out for a long time now.
Best guess at this point, and it really is a guess, is that were Bohemian.
Having studied every possible piece and publication for the last 40 years, I have literally seen thousands of similarly marked pieces. I have read countless books and visited numerous museums. I am by no means saying this is absolutely Poschinger. However they did have 3 factories. The marks for the Buchenau factory have been noted. Even some of the pieces going to royal households have been marked. However, the Frauenau Krystallwerks have yet to have a mark attached. The 1888 catalog for the Buchenau factory exists and contain pieces similar in shape to those displayed here. I have gone over thousands of glass factory invoices from Bohemia to find a FP name or a PF name and done the same with all the factories in Karlsbad since the K could stand for Karlsbad as Moser did. To have a pre eminent glass factory which made so many varieties of glass wholly unaccounted for during a 35 year period just seems suspect considering they were prolific. There has yet to be a book written about Poschingers although many of their pieces are contained in other books. I attribute these pieces to Poschingers based on my experience, European collectors, and the Sherlock Holmes adage that when you eliminate all the other possibilities then the remaining one is the solution. I will continue to pursue the absolute empirical evidence convincingly.
It would seem that you have likely missed Glassmessages.com in your extensive research, as there are a huge number of discussions about this mark..... but I leave you to your study.
My only real objective in this conversation is to present a commonly accepted and widely held belief that until now, this mark has never been identified, so readers in this forum do not end up with the impression that it has.
I would add that the problem with the Sherlock Holmes approach would be that you would have to be sure that every company was known and has been looked at. In your words, eliminate all other possibilities. Unfortunately there is far too much missing information on Bohemian glass firms to ever know that all other possibilities had been exhausted.
I have researched glass for quite a few years, and one Bohemian/Czech house almost exclusively for over 8 years now, and as recently as the end of 2014 I uncovered documents of historical significance that had never been seen. Hence my belief that the Holmes approach is not really that applicable.
I have seen the multiple debates at many forums including glass messages. I never said absolute but probable. I sincerely find this funny in that this mark 25 years ago was attributed to Harrach which I knew to be incorrect by the diversity of quality alone. Some of the pieces with this mark are sloppy to say the least. Yes, the mark is still in doubt but I have made it my mission to solve it with empirical evidence galore. I have confidence that Poschinger will be the name attached but I am open to any factory it turns out to be. I find it hard to believe that some unknown factory could exist producing thousands of wares in hun dreds of Bohemian styles without being known. But all things are possible and merely vary in degree of probable. Hence attributed to being used in Sothebys and Christies auctions.
My last point.
You stated "I never said absolute but probable."
"Poschinger pre 1900" - Your title is pretty specific.
"The mark is the obvious Krystallglasfabrik Freiherr von Poschinger which drove many a glass collector insane for years."
My contention would be that it is quite far from obvious.
My closing statement would be that these two statements seem to be pretty definitive and leave little room for wiggle, as far as interpretation by people reading it.
That is why I chimed in on the discussion.
I have the empirical evidence which shows the design on vase 2, not the bottle form, on pairs of satin peachblow vases. One set which sold at auction unmarked and one currently for sale at a British firm which does have the mark. I am working on getting more evidence as I write this. The lidded jar shape was shown in an advertisement or catalog and I am now attempting to get a copy. I may have been premature as this is a show and tell type of site and not a glass forum so to speak. However, the evidence is on the way. P.S. yes, I was prepared to be called out and have fun with this because I am getting closer to the point of publishing my article/findings. Then all the critics can way in as they wish.
Ok, just so everyone stops the personal here if you would please. My research is with a little luck going to be aided by Deborah Truitt. She is, along with her dead husband, have written books on Bohemian glass along with being a Phd herself. She only lives minutes from me. For once, living in this state may pay off. She is a very active person and getting her to assist me would be a dream come true.
retro597 there is zero evidence to support the PK mark being Poschinger. There actually is a Poschinger book, albeit not the most complete book, but it does cover Poschinger and other nearby glassworks.
I've worked extensively with Deborah Truitt (we spent two summers at the Harrach factory digitally archiving their 1860-1930's design books). I asked her about the infamous PK mark, and she has tried to research it without luck. She's spoke with several of the leading Bohemian glass scholars/researchers in the Czech Republic and Germany, and none have been able to identify the mark. Jan Mergl (Loetz, Moser, Harrach book author) believes it was a glass refiner in Karlsbad, but I'm not sure what, if any, evidence he bases that on.
I have a fair amount of Poschinger glassd (around 50 pieces), mostly focused on their Art Nouveau work, and the PK pieces do not seem to hold a candle in quality to Poschinger glass, that alone would disqualify the PK work from a potential Poschinger link.
Thank you Project Harrach for your input. As far as quality, yes, there is a great variety of quality in the PFK pieces. But then I have found that same varied distinction in every glass maker. I am glad you had time to spend with Deborah Truitt. I would love to meet her some day and just discuss glass. Alas, I have not been so fortunate. Also thank you for sharing her thoughts on the mark. What marks did Poschinger use before the paper label and at what factories? They existed long before Art Nouveau and had to make something. And did they not have multiple factories?
Greetings Retro597!
I came across this interesting discussion and wanted to learn where has your research lead do up to know... thank you for your valuable work! Has Poschinger ever replied to inquiries?? I have a similar vase (shape) and may be buying another one, thus my curiosity..
This is a product of Franz Pallme Koenig Steinschönau glass refinery. see: http://www.bohemianglass.org/katalog/franz-pallme-konig/