Posted 8 years ago
Thoughtbui…
(34 items)
This sword was sold to me along with a katana that seems questionable at best. This sword however seems authentic. I have researched and beileve a brass proof emblem had fallen out from the center of the 6 pointed star. There is no name engraved on the blade and no manufacturer that I could see. The scabbard has a number 35 stamped into it and a nicely aged leather frog that I can not seem to find in any other photographs. Can anyone verify that this is a genuine 1902 sword and if so approximate it's age. 1935 is my guess for obvious reasons
Kind of like asking, "How much are your $22 fans ?". Looks legit to me but I've never seen a leather frog on one.
I get what your saying, I had read that different plating methods, handles and other such technical details can be used to narrow down the age to within a decade or so. I suppose the question is rather academic, it's justhe that the gentleman I purchased the swords from bought them both at the same estate sale and if thus sword is of the approximate ww2 time period it could add credibility to the other sword I purchased ( samurai sword also listed)
I doubt that there were a lot of officer's dress swords used in the Pacific theater & therefore don't see how one would reflect on the other. At some point, they were surely acquired separately. I never collected nor had interest in oriental weapons and therefore cannot give a qualified opinion. There are lots of people who do have the knowledge to give you an opinion. There are loads of fakes mixed in with the loads of authentic samurai out there.
You've gone a step further in your assumptions then I did. While I'm sure that officers didn't wear there swords while in the Pacific theater I think it's worth remembering that we are home. Is it possible an officer who served in the Pacific theater during ww2 acquired a katana and brought it home to add to his 1902 sword... well it's possible, not likely, but possible. I never meant to say he wore or acquired the 1902 while in combat in Asia. What I meant is an officer of the ww2 era is the most likely candidate if your thinking of people who may have gotten a samurai sword.
I am pretty sure the frog and scabbard were not meant for each other. The scabbard is designed to be worn from a hanger so there is no frog button, yet the frog has a dip in the leather for where a frog button would go. Plus, the arrangement would make the sword ride high, with the entire sword hilt high above the belt at kidney level.
Chris
I completely agree. It seems all wrong for this application. I have removed the frog (with some difficulty) and I'll save it for another sword
Just reading up on the 6 pointed star "proof mark". The real proof is not the star of David as it doesn't show 2 interlocking triangles. It appears that yours is interlocking so therefore likely a reproduction.
Not exactly correct. While most were not interlocking triangles there were a few manufacturers who did make it this way horstmann was one I found in my research. From what I understand, the star was some type of Damascus steel proof mark that is only symbolic on this sword. They are most often made in Germany and sold under different names stateside
You must have dug deeper than I did. The one site I read said that the proof was not interlocking triangles.
Oh I did some digging. And I looked at 1902 swords till my eyes hurt. I can get obsessive like that at times. By the way, I took the sword apart again and found what I always knew would be there. Made in China. So much for theories of American officers slashing their way through Asia
The "made in" country of origin marking on US imports began well before WWII, so your sword could conceivably still be pre/post WWII period, but I don't think there was much exporting as China was in almost constant chaos. It would not have been imported between 1949-1978. In those years there was either no imports or the imports were marked "Made in People's Republic of China" or "Made in Republic of China" (Taiwan) . So - does your sword look/feel like it could have been made post 1978? What's the material the grip is made of? Another thought is that since the you had to take apart the sword to see the mark, possibly only the marked piece (the blade?) was imported.
I'm impressed at the time and research you did before and during posting. You would be surprised (or perhaps not) at how many people post "unsolved mysteries" here that seem to have done no work themselves.
Chris
The site I looked at mentioned blades (or whole swords) being made in Germany. Don't remember a mention of China or a town in Germany named China. LOL !!
You can also find 1902 swords made in Spain and England, so I don't think it is completely impossible - BUT - I have no information about imported 1902 swords from pre-communist China, and considering the state of the country, I wonder if it's even probable.
Ok, I've confused the matter and I'm sorry for doing so. The sword marked China would be the katana we were discussing prior. I should have been more clear. The 1902 sword here has no markings as to manufacture and I can not tell if the handle has been peened on or if the cap is a nut. I suspect if I removed the handle it would say germany beneath the proof star.it's odd that even the star is partially cut off at the hilt of the sword. Seems like bad measurements. Blunderbus has been fantastic and very encouraging since I first posted on this site and I've appreciated all his opinions and imput. Every little bit helps solves the puzzle. Again, I'm sorry for confusing anyone
This sword has what im assuming is a bakalite grip since it looks nothing like horn and it's surely not metal it appears to be brass beneath the guard and iron beneath the scabbard. Left facing eagle on the crest.
To return to the katana, (for the last time here to avoid confusion ) the marking of China is on the seppa or spacer above the hand guard. I believe it is original to the sword and not a replacement. The sword feels good in the hand with the center of gravity maybe 4 inches above the guard. I've been researching rust patterns on the old katanas and the one i have just doesn't hold up.
Again I state, Oriental not my collecting field, but I do listen to others. China made a lot of fakes to pass of as original Japanese. The fact that they are required to mark where made is the give away. Write that one off. I gave a '02 to a friend about 45 yrs ago & remember the 6 point star. I know it was original. The grip was shiny bakelite or plastic. Never thought about trying to remove the grip, but doubt that it is a good idea.
From what I understand 1902 swords are among the least collectible for this very reason. They are too hard to identify and too widely available. I bought the samurai sword because I got a better price on the 1902 in the deal and frankly for 70 bucks i think I've gotten a wealth of knowledge and two shiny sticks too boot. As for taking the 1902 apart, I try to take everything apart at one point or another. I can't forget to thank Chris for all his help and information as well. I've had nothing but good experiences here from very knowledgeable people
Hey, for $70, you came out OK. You can make up a story about how your great great grandfather charges (Not San Juan Hill) Mexican gundelaros with Gen. Pershing & in hand to hand combat, killed a Chinese Mexican speaking Nipponese just at the moment the CM+N was going to kill Pershing with the Chinese made Japanese sword! Of course, that's just a rough draft. LOL !! Let me know if you need help with the details. You have a good attitude !
I have two 1902 swords, one had a cap that unscrewed and I've never attempted the other. Obviously Bakelite grips would help date it to before modern plastics. It appears the leather washer covers the bottom of the star, but the leather washer itself looks a bit odd.
I also don't think there was ever a brass proof button because it looks like there are letters in the recess. I have seen steel proofs and I have seen amber shellac added to the recess to make it look brass - BUT
Having said all this, for $70 I think you did well.
Chris
It is not a leather washer that covers the star but an iron collar. Could it perhaps be a part of the scabbard that has come loose?
Not iron just old dried leather. Part of the scabbard and yes it says germany just beneath the star. So it appears this sword dates to between world wars.
Sounds like mystery solved! and a very nice buy for the price.
Thanks again Chris. Of not for you mentioning the unusual appearance of the leather washer I'd have missed it for who know how long. You guys are amazing