Posted 12 years ago
BHock45
(807 items)
So I finally got the chance to take some good pictures. Much better now that you can see all of the work I really love this very much. No exactly sure what it all says, but I will find that out soon.
.800 Wollenweber Cup Continued | ||
| Silver2495 of 3210 |  |  |
EHRENGABE SR KGL. HOn DES PRINZER ALFONS BAYERN ZUR HUNDERTJAHRFEIER GESCH. u. SIMON ELLNER
"HONOR WITH SR KGL. THE HON PRINZER ALFONS BAYERN FOR CENTENARY BUSINESS. and SIMON ELLNER"
Forgive me I used you know who's translater
Check this out mustangtony...
I did a search for Simon Ellner KGL and found this result:
Dr Max Mason & Albert Walla. MalftattBurbach. 16/11 04. - W. 22975th 30e. 170679th Stretcher with detachable rail ends. - Simon Ellner. Kulmbach.
So lets see if I have this correct. The cup is an award given to this Simon Ellner for "Centenary Business"? The award is named after this guy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_Alfons_of_Bavaria
????
This is an important trophy, given by the Prince of Bavaria! Looks much nicer here!
I disagree with some of your transcription, BHock45. It can be very hard to read those letters. : ) If you can add a second show and tell with as good photos of the script as you've given us tonight, tommorrow night I'll decipher the letters and pass the correct text to Tony via CW comment. I was hoping that Tony would volunteer to translate it for you. : )
FYI, I like the SDL German translator.
Take care!
What i have to offer is this so far:
EHRENGABE SEINER KÖNIGLISCHE HOHEIT DES PRINZER ALFONS BAYERN ZUR HUNDERTJAHRFEIER GESCHICHTE V. SIMON ELLNER
To be honest I'm not sure about that V.
There were abbreviations similar to the English H.R.H.. The German form is here Sr. Kön, Hoh. Gesch. is short for Geschichte.
Hope this helps.
Leave it alone!
A bit more information.
Kulmbach is located in the middle of the Bavarian province of Upper Franconia, about 15.5 miles (25 km) northwest of the city of Bayreuth. In 1791 Charles Alexander, Margrave of Brandenburg-Ansbach sold the March of Brandenburg-Bayreuth to his cousin, the King of Prussia. This is called the end of the Margravate.
In doing so he also sold Kulmbach and it too, became Prussian.
Ownership of the area changed hands a few times over the next few years.
The Plassenburg Castle in Kulmbach was used as a camp for French prisoners of war. Since the Plassenburg represented an obstacle to French and Bavarian forces advancing against Prussia in 1806, the town of Kulmbach was occupied in October and November that year. After the capitulation of its Prussian garrison, the castle was slighted in order to render it militarily useless.
The upshot was that in 1810, Bayreuth was bought by Bavaria, and Kulmbach too.
In 1846 it was connected to the King Ludwig South-North Railway. This resulted in a tremendous economic boom - particularly for the breweries - as their products could now be readily exported. So the number of breweries grew to 26 in 1882. In 1890 Kulmbach was elected as a free (kreisunmittelbar) town.
One hundred years later his Royal Highness Prince Alfons von Bayern was in town on September 4, 1910 to celebrate the centenary of Bavarian rule.
The plot thickens.
I just noticed that the text has this addition:
EHRENGABE SEINER KÖNIGLISCHE HOHEIT DES PRINZER ALFONS VON BAYERN ZUR HUNDERTJAHRFEIER GESCHICHTE V. SIMON ELLNER
Apologies.
Is it a toasting cup?
Good morning, all! See that you're working on this. Super. I can see only part of the actual engraving, so I haven't really worked on this much at all. I am very busy today, but I wanted to see if I could provide something that might help. Can't see the 'v./V.', vetraio. 'V/v' before "Simon Ellner" sounds OK to me. However, are you wondering if it's perhaps an 'u.', instead? I can't see the engraving.
I think we can reject the hypothesis of the ‘v.’ being here a nobiliary particle, though I think that the full 'von' in the Prince's name/title is a nobiliary particle. Follows a link to the various contemporary senses of the preposition "von", with grammar rules.
http://dict.tu-chemnitz.de/dings.cgi?lang=en&service=de-en&opterrors=0&optpro=0&query=von
So also for lexicon on "zur".
http://dict.tu-chemnitz.de/dings.cgi?lang=en&service=de-en&opterrors=0&optpro=0&query=zur
I'm not sure if it will provide what you need. German Bavarian grammar of 1910 might well be different than it is today. I've heard that there was once was a time, and not too long ago, when a northern German could hardly understand a Bavarian, but that the dialects now enjoy more grammatical synonymy. If you are sure that the letter is a 'v./V.', and the contemporary usage doesn't suffice, then I would try to find a Bavarian grammar or lexicon of the period. Please pardon me if you already covered this. Also if it's quite goofy! - didn't sleep much last night.
REF 'ZUR HUNDERTJAHRFEIER GESCHICHTE V. SIMON ELLNER': Is the sense of the phrase the following? '...upon/to the Centennial Story/History of/by/from Simon Ellner'?
The past three weeks, I have been reviewing the German I took in college via Austrian dialogue and proper contemporary German (qua DE) grammar lessons. I am somewhat pleased to see that the Austrians have jettisoned many genitives, but there are still plenty of datives and accusatives to get one into trouble. I leave this in your competent hands, tony and vetraio! If you need an opinion on whether a particular engraved letter stands for a particular printed letter, I'll be back tonight. That is the only facet of this engraving upon which I might have an intelligent opinion! Busy day here. Best wishes for success! : )
Just want to thank everyone for helping. I am going to take a picture around the cup for mikkochristmas11 as soon as I can. Vetraio50 I am not sure, how would I know if it is a Toasting cup? The size? I will get the exact dimensions.
Hi, BHock45! You're most welcome, sir. I heard this afternoon that the wicked storm did materialize and I expect you will be very busy for a good bit. Please stay safe, and don't worry about us. We're be right here when it is once again a good time for you. Praying that your family is safe and warm during the storm! Take care. : )
Hi BHock, the dimensions would help.
I know now the prince Alfons arrived in Kulmbach on September 3, 1910 for a two day Royal Visit.
Interestingly he arrived by train, too!
"Prinz Alfons von Bayern erwies Kulmbach die Ehre und wurde im festlich dekorierten Bahnhof empfangen und zog unter Jubel durch die ebenfalls geschmückte ..."
The Bayreuth Altstadt-Kulmbach railway line was opened the year before on June 26, 1909. In 2010 this was again remembered for the bi-centennial occasion of the Bavarian take-over of Kulmbach. It was remembered in an article that I have not read by a German historian Helmut Beisbart:
"Grosser Bahnhof für Prinz Alfons Vortrag Historiker Helmut Beisbart referierte im Mönchshof über die Feier "100 Jahre Kulmbach in Bayern" im Jahr 1910. Fürs Königshaus war der Beitritt der Stadt damals ein "neuer Edelstein in der Krone Bayerns"
Kulmbach Es war der 3. und 4. September 1910, als "100 Jahre Kulmbach in Bayern" groß gefeiert wurde. Anlässlich der Tatsache, dass sich das zum 100. Mal jährt, zeigte Historiker Helmut Beisbart im Rahmen einer Vortragsreihe des Colloquium Historicum Wirsbergense und der Volkshochschule im Mönchshof auf, welche Anstrengungen für diesen ... "
I believe that Helmut Beisbart would know what this object was used for and when on September 4, 1910.
I'm still not sure if this was a gift to Prince Alfons by Simon Ellner or if it was given to Simon Ellner by the Prince.
Those are the alternatives, I believe.
Until we see the full inscription it will be one of those two options.
At this stage I'm leaning to it's being an award to Simon Ellner, but others may like to contribute their opinion. My German is not that good.
EEHRENGABE suggests in English a TESTIMONIAL object, a PRIZE, an AWARD.
a PRESENTATION OBJECT.
zur Zeit means "currently"
zur Hundertjahrfeier Geschichte I suppose could mean:
"on the occasion of the Celebrations for a Hundred Historic Years".
I'm to getting a lot of information about Simon Ellner.
I have seen records of the death of an infantryman Simon Ellner in France on April 5 1915.
Sorry that should read:
I'm not getting a lot of information about Simon Ellner.
I have seen records of the death of an infantryman Simon Ellner in France on April 5 1915.
What's happening in New Jersey?
Blizzard? Two coverging storm fronts. Got it>
Stay safe BHock!
Wow, vetraio! Fantastic - as per usual!!!
1.) Bad blizzard - major storm, and many folks are still discombobulated from Sandy. A major blow to these poor people.
http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/02/08/16895255-this-is-it-mammoth-winter-storm-lashes-northeast?lite
2.) Do you have a copy of Herr Beisbart's article? I know a number of German speakers. One is a native of Bavaria - a sharp cookie. Would love the article if you have it. If you find the article and you are bored, could you please post a link?
3.) Perhaps AR8Jason could find out more on Simon Ellner. He, too, is always pulling rabbits out of hats.
4.) Also, vetraio, would it be too much trouble for you to post the letters that you think correspond to the engraving? I mean, which typewritten letters do you think that the engraved letters correspond to, please? I'm trying to ask for as much of the engraved letters as you have, with ellipses points when text is missing. Confusing request! Don't trouble yourself with this if you're busy, please.
5.) My personal opinion -- without reading the inscription! -- is that this will be a gift/award from the Prince to Ellner (or other?). I don't think the Prince's crown and monogram would be on this item if it were Ellner's gift/award to the Prince.
Thanks to all! : )
Hello everyone. Just checking in to see what's been going on. And I am not surprised at all that you guys are hard at work!!! A few things. First, vetraio50 did you see the photos I posted earlier? These were taken by the same man (my friends uncle) who must've found this cup, and everything else that I listed during the past few days. It is the castle I am wondering about. See it here:
http://www.collectorsweekly.com/stories/81521-photos-from-wwii?in=activity
All this talk about royalty, and now I find a picture of a castle that was, "very near we were staying. It was built over 700 years ago." According to his notes on the back.
Secondly, thank you everyone for your concern. New Jersey is a strange place, my parents live 17 miles north of us. They are getting the "blizzard" right now. They are supposed to get 10 inches. We have not even gotten an inch yet. Yes, I do feel for the Sandy victims as well....we have a small home at the jersey shore, and luckily were not affected, but those who were lost everything, and can't seem to get rebuilding either.
Third, I am going to go take those pictures right now so that you all can look at them. Mikkochristmas11 you spoke earlier about the difference and confusion over the U or the V. When I translated I could not discern either!!! But let me do that now. I had spinal decompression a few hours ago for my 2 herniated discs, and only have a few more minutes of tolerable movement. BRB!!!
Hi miKKo. Here is the reference to the article in the Bayerische Rundschau.
http://www.genios-presse.de/artikel,BR,20101115,grosser-bahnhof-fuer-prinz-alfons-v,3121453289.html
Note they want 2.38 Euros to see it. I baulked.
I've got Herr Beisbart's address but not an email yet.
I agree with your comment about the monogram.
It would have been a well planned presentation. My thought had been that perhaps ellner may have had brewing connections. I have not found any reference o the breweries in the town as yet. It might also be linked to the Railway.
My thoughts also went to how it travelled across the pond?
Does the current owner know the provenance of these items?
Did they all come fom the one source or were they collected separately?
Lots of thoughts actually.
across the pond you mean to the USA vetraio50?
the measurements: 4 3/4 inces high; 3 inces width top; 1 3/4 inches across bottom
I've had a look BBock and I don't think that it is the Plassenberg in Kulmbach.
I was writing when you posted those photos mate!
Atlantic Pond yes.
Yes, I know for a fact how it got here. The man in the middle picture in this link:
http://www.collectorsweekly.com/stories/81521-photos-from-wwii?in=user
is my friend's uncle. He brought a bag home from the war, which sat in his home for many many years unopened and untouched. One day my friend got a phone call to come pick up her inheritance from her uncle whom she had not spoken to in some time. She was given this bag. After looking through its contents she put it aside for several more years until it was given to me to look through. I would say I am the first person to look at this stuff since it arrive home in the 1940's. So this is where all of my recent posts come from.
PS: you are talking to the current owner of this cup. It was given to me as a gift from helping her sort this out. Very nice friend!
Hi! Here it is. Please tell me if you need another picture of a certain part of the rim.
http://www.collectorsweekly.com/stories/81551-read-around-the-rim-1?in=user
http://www.collectorsweekly.com/stories/81552-read-around-the-rim-2?in=user
Seven total picture starting in the first link ending in the second.
Hi, BHock45! Hope that the storm goes well by your family, and that you are not suffering from the bad discs! Will remember you. Please don't worry about photos when you feel so bad!!!
Yes, I did earlier see some photos from which I could take some text, but I could see very little indeed, and didn't much puzzle it as I have been very busy.
BHock45, did you see my final posting on the J & J. HALL silver spoons? William
Erik Voss indicated that he saw no grounds for Cowan's hypothetical finding.
Vetraio, thanks a lot for the link!!! I'll register later tonight and get the article. If it's not verboten, I'll pass it on to anyone who wants a copy. Also, vetraio, if you find Herr Beisbart's email address, would love to have it. I wouldn't be writing to him in lieu of you, but my German friend might think that a contact is indicated. Thanks a lot! : )
Here's a link to one of my very favorite pieces of American literature: Mark Twain's "The Awful German Language". Joyful Friday to all! : )
http://www.collectorsweekly.com/stories/81431-800-wollenweber-cup-continued#comment-296805
Hi, BHock45! Wow, that was fast! Great photos. I might need one more. I'll have to look at it after I've rested tonight. I'll print all the photos on all four entries. Super!
Yes, BHock, this is a splendid gift, indeed!!! I am sure that you have been a very good friend to her, as well. Take care!
Ehrengabe FrKgl. Hoh.des Prinzen Alfons von Bayern zur Hundertjahrfeier gesch.v.Simon Ellner
OOPS, you can tell I'm tired. That was not the link to Twain. Here it is:
http://www.bergerwerbung.at/files/Potpourri/The_Awful_German_Language_by_Mark_Twain.pdf
I will check out your J & J Hall tomorrow....time to put the little one to bed.
Hi, BHock45! You are FAST! Thanks a million!!! Now, please get some rest. : )
Ehrengabe Sr. Kgl. Hoh. des Prinzen Alfons von Bayern zur Hundertjahrfeier gesch.v. Simon Ellner.
That's my reading. Just slightly different.
It's a type of Lateinische Ausgangsschrift.
That "S" is quite particular.
vetraio50 you're money at reading fonts and handwriting...amazing!
There might still be problems.
That 'gesch. v.' is still problematic!
Now it is German abbreviations of that period!
Twain's "HABEN SIND GEWESEN GEHABT HAVEN GEWORDEN SEIN" has me puzzled!
Maybe the gesch. is short for 'geschätzt' and not Geschichten?
It could mean 'geschätzt von Simon Ellner' or 'treasured by Simon Ellner'.
I don't think the other possibility of gesch. = geschieden 'divorced' is quite there.
"As a general rule, the members of the blood royal of an Imperial or Royal house are addressed as Imperial or Royal Highness (French Altesse Imperiale, Altesse Royale; German Kaiserliche Hoheit, Königliche Hoheit; Spanish Alteza Imperial, Alteza Real, etc.) respectively.
In Germany, Austria (and other former parts of the Holy Roman Empire) the reigning heads of the Grand Duchies bear the title of Royal Highness (Königliche Hoheit), while other members of the family are simply addressed as Grand Ducal Highness or Highness (Großherzogliche Hoheit or Hoheit). Hoheit is borne by the reigning dukes and the princes and princesses of their families."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highness
Oh dear, yet another attempt at putting it all together:
EHRENGABE SEINER KÖNIGLISCHE HOHEIT DES PRINZER ALFONS BAYERN ZUR HUNDERTJAHRFEIER GESCHÄTZT VON SIMON ELLNER.
..... and before you know it miKKo will get those German friends to adjudicate, I hope. I shoul have worked harder at my German forty years ago!
Time for a rest myself and leave you to it!
Hello to all! Haven't forgotten you. Was too sick last night to work. I am unreliable when I am in that state, and make mistakes. Like I did the night I started on the J & J. Hall spoon right away because I wanted to support BHock. So, last night, quit on the Prince's trophy rather than blunder on.
Vetraio and BHock, thanks a million! Vetraio, I had found an Ellner who had published on another 'gesch.' word, so I had started with something quite different than what you originally proposed for 'gesch.' I will re-examine that when I've caught up with my other 'Prince trophy' duties. Sorry, I had presumed that you were comfortable with the German language.
Vetraio, if you comprehended the plain sense of "HABEN SIND GEWESEN GEHABT HAVEN GEWORDEN SEIN", Twain would commit you to the museum - or recommend a good neurologist.
Finally, vetraio, glad you recognized the Lateinische Ausgangsschrift so quickly! I would have puzzled through several possibilities. The perils of being fond of calligraphy.... : ) Now to work....
I've just been saying "HABEN SIND GEWESEN GEHABT HAVEN GEWORDEN SEIN" a few times and getting the rhythm of it floating back and forwards in the "der Mund". Amusing!
That's quite an earwig, vetraio! Better get the phone book. "N" for Neurology. : )
Bad news. Last night I tried to purchase the article, and it kept requiring me to register, set up an account, and then even tell them my email account password. Decided to wait until I was clear-headed to do this. I have since discovered that I can't have the article without first purchasing a yearly subscription. Which would cost about 120.00-ish USD. So, there will be no journal article. Sorry guys! OK, now, back to work. Later. : )
A sensible decision!
I get put off easily by these little grab bags!
Earwigs?
"Sopra la panca la capra campa,
sotto la panca la capra crepa" is one of my sibillant favourites!
A party trick for the classroom!
Thanks for your efforts.
His email address is the way!
Otherwise an old fashioned letter!
Hey everyone first off I forgot to thank everyone for their loves....an awful mistake on my end!
So...Thanks to: bratjdd, poop, bellin68, vetraio50, ar8jason, mikkochristmas11, and mustangtony!
So I have been a little under the weather as mikkochristmas11... must be something floating around on CW. Either that or I am crashing after my marathon posting of WWII item the past few days. Just want to thank you guys again for doing all of this, if there is something I have to do let me know and ill do it. For the meantime I will take yall advice and leave it alone!
Vetraio, I am sure that you were an excellent and delightfully witty teacher. Your students were most fortunate to have you! Thank you very much for the little ditty there. : )
More plosive than sibilant. I suppose.
I came across a reference late, around midnight here last night, miKKo.
It relates to Simon Ellner and was found in a 1906 list of Patents.
I am about to have another look in the light of day.
It's in a googlebook that allows me only limited access here in Oz.
I wonder if you might do better there in US not Oz.
A copy exists at the University of Chicago, it seems.
http://www.yasni.com/simon+ellner/check+people
All I get is:
Books & Literature
Patentblatt: herausgegeben von dem Kaiserl. Patentamt -...
abnehmbaren Holmenden.- Simon Ellner. Kulmbach. Bayern, 26/4 04. 301], Sch. 22845.
books.google.com
Source:
Title Patentblatt: herausgegeben von dem Kaiserl. Patentamt, Volume 30, Part 2
Contributors Germany. Kaiserliches Patentamt, Deutsches Patentamt
Publisher C. Heymanns Verlag, 1906
Original from University of Chicago
Digitized 17 Oct 2012
A patent for what? It might be linked to the beaker, maybe not.
"abnehmbaren Holmenden" - removable/detachable bar ends, removable beam ends?
Railway related?
Hi, vetraio! Great job!!! I just took a peak. Very strange results. There are four entries for our guy - or some German-speaking person of same name, and three of them fall in a category marked "bad news". I went to the one not marked bad news, and some other program popped up and prompted me to download -- without telling me what I would be downloading! This is a strange site. I will have to work on this one. Promise I'll get to it tonight as soon as I finish posting my show and tells. AmberRose and inky have spoiled me disastrously, and I must thank them properly.
University of Chicago is one of the best universities in the world, and has an excellent library. Take heart!, we might be able to access these from over here. Later tonight! : )
vetraio50, I came across the same exact google book earlier on. I though that I posted the link somewhere, but I can't find it right now. I remember seeing removable detachable beam ends for a stretcher. Double check if you would like to but that is what I remembered coming across. I would love to look right now, but my little girl needs to be put to bed. This bedtime thing is always getting in the way!!! JK. Later!
Hi BHock. Priorities rule!
MiKKo the Bad News section of yasni leads to an interesting data base of the German fallen in WWI. The section I refer to is a little further down in the Books & Literature section.
Thanks, vetraio! Was just checking email prior to commencing my search for your documents. Sorry, posting gifts took longer than expected. FYI, BHock mentioned a stretcher in his comment no. 4 above -- no link. : )
OK, Vetraio, see if you can open this one, please! I'll be here for a good long while, at the ready. I'll see if I can find more. Just want to see if you can open this.
http://books.google.com/books?id=-NI1AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA4&lpg=PA4&dq=%22Simon+Ellner%22&source=bl&ots=klN1Tf5iVv&sig=gZ6zRk2_whoghLR53iWKha71Iwc&hl=en&sa=X&ei=NZYXUeOINM6VjAKNv4DoAQ&ved=0CJcBEOgBMCk#v=onepage&q=%22Simon%20Ellner%22&f=false
OK, Vetraio. As you see, the page is not only in German language, but in a very 'old black letter font'. I wonder if this is the font that Adolf Hitler outlawed? Anyway, I doubt that the SDL search engine would read the text. Perhaps much better to get the numbers and try the database below. Please let me know if it works for you. Best wishes for success!!! : )
http://patentscope.wipo.int/search/en/search.jsf
http://german.about.com/library/blerf_gloss.htm
Here's a method for searching German, Swiss, and Austrian patents -- this one by year.
http://german.about.com/library/blerf_gloss.htm
http://german.about.com/library/blerfindung.htm
Oops. Just saw your last comment on Comment No. 50. Sorry. That was my thought, too - perhaps something connected with the railway. I keep pulling up ladder-like things, but not by Ellner.
Oh, I just found something on it -- it's for use in a hospital, i.e. "Krankenhaus", so it will probably be more like a stretcher than a ladder? Let me see if I can get some more on it.
Vetraio, RE "abnehmbaren Holmenden" - remember that this will be in the Dative case since it follows the preposition "mit". I searched the online dictionaries I use for this phrase - without the "mit" and without the dative endings, and I got nothing in English. It looked like there's not an exact English equivalent. The translators would translate all around it but leave that phrase untouched. I think it's early evening where you are. It's midnight here, and I don't see you, so I'll sign off for tonight.
BHock, perhaps you could find the source of the info you used in Comment No. 4 ?
BHOCK45, Could you please delete my Comment No. 49 above? Thanks.
Goodnight all!
- removable/detachable bar ends, removable beam ends?
Railway related?
Oops. Sorry about the straggler at the end of the above comment - residual from cut and paste.
Here in Australia I just get nine lines of lack letter text in two rows. There is no mention of Ellner. So frustrating. Recently I found out that maybe you in the US have more revealed by google than we in Oz.
Is that the case or do you just have two pages?
I get page 4 and again another short snippet from page 455.
Hi, vetraio! No, I get a lot more - I see his name. Let me see what I can do. Few moments.... : )
OK, I've downloaded the ebook supposedly. The navigation functions are in the upper right corner. Search on the ebook itself pulled two entries for Simon Ellner, but both are for this stretcher. Perhaps when patent was applied for, then when patent granted? The item is stretcher for the krankenhaus. Book is supposed to include all 1074 pages. See if you can pull it up, please. If not, then please tell me what pages you need, and I'll see if I can get them. The file has been formatted to prevent copying text and printing text. Note well, please: Your page 455 comes up on the search string as "306". Better use the search navigation tool to get to your pages. I pulled his records by entering "Simon Ellner". Good luck! : )
https://play.google.com/books/reader?id=-NI1AQAAMAAJ&printsec=frontcover&output=reader&authuser=0&hl=en_US
Oh, by the way, my name appears in the atop the page. Thanks.
I found a way to copy it for you! Very little info, vetraio, but you can have it all. Just a few moments, please.
That link gave me an error message. As I thought different strokes for those not in the US. Different agreements.
OK, here it is. Not much at all - again. I haven't a clue as to how to read the specialized tags on these entries.
p. 455 (Thus on page, but “306” on search tool.)
30e. 170679. Krankentrage mit abnehmbare Holm enden. - Simon Ellner. Kulmbach. Bayern. 27/4 04. - E. 9996.
Page 4 (Thus on page, but “xiv” on search tool.)
30c. E. 9991i. Kranfentrage mit abnehmbaren Holmenden.- Simon Ellner. Kulmbach. Bayern, 26/4 04.
Vetraio, have a look at this. They are adding extra digits to old patent numbers in order to enable online searching of a patent database. You want to see the patent? It will have a drawing. By the way, blunderbuss might know how to search German patents. I used to search an international patent database for aviation technology, but that was a long time ago....And I used French and English, not German.
http://www.stn-international.de/stn_news_message_03.html?&cHash=11f6545ad93750d3cd820cf3cd6a20a9&tx_ttnews%5Btt_news%5D=457
Thanks miKKo.
Krankentrage mit abnehmenden holmenden.
A hospital or military item?
Krankentrage mit abnehmbaren holmenden!
Oops!
Most welcome, sir! Could be used used in hospital or field, I imagine. That last database link I provided in No. 69 is not what we want. I'm feeling stupid here. It might come to me. I will try for a bit to find the actual patent.
http://www.koczyba.de/downloads/katalog/KOC_Tragen_Liegen.pdf
OK, got it. According to the European Patent Database, it's a stretcher - "Civière pour malades".
http://worldwide.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?FT=D&date=19060418&DB=worldwide.espacenet.com&locale=en_EP&CC=FR&NR=360265A&KC=A&ND=5
You can navigate this page and get a little more information, but haven't gotten the full patent yet.
Oh, didn't see your link. Was on the European Patent Database. REF your link, I can see only the photograph. I can't navigate. Can you navigate?
My, you're good!
Classification:
- international: A61G1/04
- cooperative: A61G1/04
Ambulance service
A61G1/00
Stretchers
A61G1/04 . Parts, details or accessories, e.g. head-, foot-, or like rests specially adapted for stretchers.
My, that's praise indeed, sir! I'll be floating on the ceiling now! Thank you!!!
Now we have the new numbers, and we know the general category, but there's no abstract and no drawing/diagram/model. Somewhere there has to be a sketch, and somewhere a patent abstract. Unless it was lost during WWII. Grim times for the German populace towards end of war. Fire bombs. I'll keep rummaging for a bit. If I can navigate down from the ceiling. : ) I've tried looking for a German annual on advances in medical equipment/technology, but my German is not good enough yet.
Each element of the classification number explained.
Like Dewey library catalogue system, I suppose.
A = HUMAN NECESSITIES
A61 = MEDICAL OR VETERINARY SCIENCE; HYGIENE
A61G = TRANSPORT OR ACCOMODATION FOR PATIENTS; OPERATING TABLES OR CHAIRS; CHAIRS FOR DENTISTRY; FUNERAL DEVICES
A61G1/00 = STRETCHERS
A61G1/04. = Parts, details or accessories, e.g. head-, foot-, or like rests specially adapted for stretchers.
At the moment I'm on an iPad and it's not totally flexible like my big one. What time is it there with you in Virginia?
Yes, it's a wonderful system. I see that you can navigate. Have fun.
Here's what BHock45 reported as "finding" in his Comment No. 4:
Dr Max Mason & Albert Walla. MalftattBurbach. 16/11 04. - W. 22975th 30e. 170679th Stretcher with detachable rail ends. - Simon Ellner. Kulmbach.
Here's what came up on the European Patent Database for Dr. Max Mason etc. Not a big advance, but it shows us that Albert Walla was an inventor, or in some way was a 'principal' to this invention.
http://worldwide.espacenet.com/searchResults?compact=false&ST=singleline&query=%22Dr+Max+Mason%22+OR+%22Albert+Walla%22+OR+%22MalftattBurbach%22&locale=en_EP&DB=worldwide.espacenet.com
Hi, vetraio. I'm in Okahoma - it's 3:48 am here. It's 4:48 am in Viriginia, where chinablue lives.
Gotcha! A bit late!
Here we have an online database with historic Bavarian newspapers!
http://www.bayerische-landesbibliothek-online.de/schwerpunkte
Walla's dates are a bit later: 1922 -3-15.
Those dates are for the invention that was patented on that page - blood filtration, etc. Since we haven't found Ellner yet, I thought we might find Dr. Max Mason or Albert Walla. Just casting about. Not wanting to call the German consulate and ask how we could verify if Ellner's actual patent application with drawing is available anywhere. Suppose I should call it a night. Thanks for the fun!!! Later. : )
Sleep well!
Hey everyone! Just got to work and saw all of your comments. Mikkochristmas11 I deleted that comment for you. I cant wait to sit down and read this, but gotta take the kids out in the community for now. See you later!
@ Vetraio No. 86, thank you very much, sir! @ BHock, Take care out there! See y'all later! : )
Hello, all!
Received word from Dr. M, a very fine scholar, a native of Bavaria, and a master of German, English, and etc. languages. She reports that the following is an excellent translation of the inscription, but regrets that she cannot supply the appropriate "gesch." word for us. She said that it could be a number of words! Per vetraio's question, could this be a toast?, she responded that the cup would be appropriate for toasting. She did not say whether this would be an appropriate toast. As she and her husband have both been hard at work, I did not question her further. (Two significant publications within a month!)
'Honorable gift of His Highness, Prince Alfons of Bavaria,
upon the occasion of the Centennial Celebration _____ [gesch. v.] Simon Ellner.
Kulmbach, Sept. 4, 1910'
As discussed earlier, we need to find out more about the events of 4 Sept. 1910 before we can answer the "gesch." question. To that end, I have via email queried the State Archive for Kulmbach, and asked them our main questions in hilariously poor German. I provided a link to Herr Helmut Beisbart's article in "Bayerische Rundschau", and I asked them about that. I provided a link to this particular CW entry. With great gratitude and confidence in the generosity and courtesy of the German people, I hope we will soon have more information. Take care, later!
Love it, you must have been a diplomat!
@ Vetraio No. 90: Sir, would that that were true! The gentleman is kind.
To all, hearty greetings! By the great courtesy and generosity of an Archivist with the Kulmbach City Archive, we have been fortunate to receive a most generous response to our queries. We don't have clear answers yet, but we do have a suggestion for further research, and we have no doubt made a great advance. The Archivist forwarded to us three documents, plus a statement of her findings in transmittal cover. I translated the transmittal, and have submitted it with the original correspondence to vetraio, whose inspired researches first breathed vigorous life into the quest for an account of the nature and ‘history’ of this distinguished and handsome silver cup. Vetraio has not only inspired and directed our search, but has also been the worker bee colony, as well. So, we await his excellent judgment....Until later. : )
Hi miKKo! Breakfasted, I'll look at the emails in a few minutes time. Greeting from sunny Sydney!
Hi, vetraio! Greetings from a chilly Oklahoma evening! Many thanks for your very generous email! I eagerly started work on it, but will break now to refresh. Back on target in a few hours! : )
I've had a thought having read Herr Beisbart's article, or two.....
Where did he get his information about these two days?
Was there a newspaper in Kulmbach that reported the event?
Perhaps it was covered in the mainstream press in Bayreuth or elsewhere?
The Bayreuther Tagblatt or the Fränkische Presse?
The two days involved with the visit to Kulmbach were a Saturday and Sunday. On the Saturday the Prince was welcomed by a positive crowd assembled on the station and on the way back to the home of where he would stay the night:
"Bürgermeister Flessa und die Honoratioren der Statdt begleiteten ihn durch die Spalier der Feuerwehren, Veteranen-, Krieger-, und Turnvereine sowie der die Sanitätskolonne und der Schuljugend zu seinem Quartier im Haus der Familie des Kommerzienrates Wilhelm Müller in der Langgasse 6, dem späteren Wittelsbacher Saal und heutigen “Woolworth”."
Firemen, veterans, soldiers, sports club members lined the streets back to Wilhelm Müller's on the Langgasse 6, now the site of Woolworth.
The next day was when the presentations were made. In the Town Square. Here's the webcam if you press on the picture:
http://www.webcam-deutschland.de/marktplatz_in_kulmbach.html
There's more to all of this because of a Town Scandal!
"Einen Eklat verursachte .... "
Firemen too!
Hi, all! Vetraio, thank you very much for the text you sent me! Woah. I have just stumbled through the German. I am utterly amazed at the behavoir of Herr Sörgel. How could he disdain the gift of the Prince like that? Bavaria is very traditional, and courtesy and protocol govern everyday life. In a society where even today it is unacceptable to address one's neighbor with less than the formal "Sie" (unless you are close friends), for a school inspector to disdain an award presented by the Prince astonishes me. Yes, the newspapers of the time may well have a bit more. However, it is my personal opinion that you should definitely write to Herr Beisbart, sending him photos of this trophy. I think that the man who recounted these peculiar things in the "BR" would be fascinated by this silver cup. I don't think that the Kulmbach archive has anything further on Ellner or this award. At least, that was my understanding of their understanding. Another tack would be to find an historian who specialized in Prince Alfons or his family. Still another, consult a scholar who specialized in early 20th century German medical technology/devices. Finally, what about the silversmith firm itself? If their records are extant, they should have record of this cup. A Prince doesn't award / present a silver cup every day, and we have the exact date of the inscription. Just some thoughts....It would be a pleasure to help, sir!...Bravo, vetraio!!! Good night all! : )
Good morning, all! Vetraio, I'm sorry - mind doesn't work well when fatigued. Forgot to mention here (CW) the patent centers recommended by Kulmbach Archive. If we want to find an abstract and diagram/drawing for this stretcher, we would still need to write them. As we've discussed, this might well be a dead end, but we won't know unless we try. In morning light, still think Herr Beisbart would be the very best source for a fuller account of this cup, and especially for discovering the significance of this cup. What did this cup represent to the Prince and to the receiver? What was so laudable with the ambulance service? However, I also recommend in the meantime a trek through the Bavarian newspapers of the period. Thank you for a delightfully rich encounter with the Kulmbach centennial celebration!!! I also much enjoyed viewing the linked market place 'square' via webcam. Best wishes for a fruitfall day!! : )
Hi, BHock in wintry New Jersey! Hope that your parents and your family are doing well despite these bitter things that Mother Nature has hurled at you.
Only one document have I translated into felicitous English. That is the transmittal cover letter from the Kulmbach Archive. Despite the fact that I studied German at Rice University and did well, I remember very little German. That was over a quarter of a century ago. Vetraio understands well my caveat. I am confident that this translation of mine is a fairly accurate one, but I don't guarantee it 100%. For that reason, I shouldn't care to see it published or forwarded to others as a proper translation, or ANY sharing of it under my name. I never use my real name online or share my email address, so please keep those things private. Please do not disclose my name or email address to others. Thank you.
Along with the original German language transmittal and my translation, I shall send you the three attachments from Kulmbach - all in German. I have read these in German, but have not translated them into English for others, and cannot undertake to do so. I have a severe lymphatic deformity, and I cannot bend my arms for long periods or type for a significant period without causing damage. I pushed myself way too far on the HALL spoons in my effort to support you, and I was happy to do it since you are new to CW, but I simply cannot translate these other documents into English. It is too much for me physically. Today, I have to write a proper thank you to the Kulmbach Archivist. As you will see, she was very generous indeed! Later, I will ask vetraio if he wants me to query the patent offices. If so, that will consume my quota of permissible exertion for days. I will send you a link to two German language tools. They should permit you to acquire some sense of the content of the documents.
By the way, if you undertake any other research, and post it, please provide proper references. Vetraio and I spent hours and hours trying to backtrack to your original finding. So, also with the HALL spoons. Thank you very much. So, within the next 20 minutes you'll have my work. Hope your Saturday is splendid, sir! So good to see that you are enjoying life despite the Winter weather. : )
mikkochristmas, of course...in fact, if you don't feel comfortable sending it don't even worry about it. No big deal. If you would just keep me updated as you have been doing that is great!
Hey, sorry I red this in paragraphs....if you are in so much pain..Please Please Please don't continue to type!! I don't want this to be an extra burden on you. As far as references go, the reason I didn't reference the original post was that it did not seem credible to me as a "google book". Also, if I just do a general search for a term I really never trust what pops up in the results.
honestly mikkochristmas11....I understand this is interesting to all of us. But nothing is worth putting oneself in extra pain. PLEASE TAKE IT EASY!!!
Hi, BHock! Thank you so very much for your very gracious concerns for my health! Most kind of you! I was just explaining why I can't help as much as I should like to. You will see uneven performance from me when I am tired. You'll notice it. : 0 Ah, no, I was very happy to do these things for you, sir! I just wanted you to know that this carcass of mine carries constraints. I'll let you know when I can't help - as I did with the gorgeous cased silver spoons.
As for references, I commend you. It is good to be cautious about what we find on the internet. However, in this case you discovered something very important before the rest of us did, and we had a time backtracking. I salute your researching skills BHock! (I've seen these skills in action before, too, and it was very gratifying! Hope to see them many, many times!)
So, very pleased to meet you! By now you will have all the documents that I have. Best wishes for a splendid Saturday with your family, sir! Regards, miKKo : )
mikkochristmas11...please don't bother responding to this last message. I just want you to understand any time I've called you into the conversation, I have done so out of admiration and respect, not because I am too lazy to do the work. As far as your, "uneven performance," I have never seen that from you, and to me you are always on point, and I am always impressed!!!
About the research... I will do so next time, I will make sure I site and explain my findings...as a newcomer I am sometimes afraid to be wrong, I hope you can understand that. I am more cautious with my findings because I do feel like a newcomer to CW, and I do not want to offend true dedicated members like yourself, vetario, and others (I would rather be cautious than be a superstar!)
So with all that being said, please please feel better and get some rest. AND DONT RESPOND TO THIS!!! haha, have a wonderful weekend!!
Hi, BHock! Thank you very much for your very gracious message!!! It is always a pleasure to help you. You are a very kind soul. (You also have excellent taste in silver! Woah.) And, you have good research skills. Don't hesitate to post your findings! You can add any caveat you like. If I couldn't issue caveats my mouth and fingers would be immobile – I would say almost nothing.
I think that this cup is a significant historical artifact, and for that reason, I am being extra careful. A provenance is important, and these things will help bolster your assertions of authenticity. So, I am very careful. I was very happy to send you the documents – I had intended to later, when we wrapped up, but it is just as well now as then. Thank you for your great courtesy, sir!...Later! : )
Perhaps I should add a little more about the "scandal"?
With a copy of Herr Beisbart's article on the Prince's visit I looked for material that might be pertinent to this piece. One of the awards that day was to "der städtische Schulrat Erhard Sörgel" a member of the Town's School Council. It was the official presentation of what was supposed to be a silver medal (der Prinzregenten-Medaille in Silber). Unfortunately the Prince handed over a bronze medal. Herr Sörgel was affronted by the lower medal and passed it to the Mayor commenting that he couldn't accept it and left the ceremony.
"Er hatte diese Medaille zwar formell aus der Hand des Prinzen Alfons mit kurzem Dank entgegengenommen, sie dann aber an Bürgermeister Flessa mit dem Bemerken zurück gegeben, das er diese Auszeichnung nicht annehmen könne. Er hat den Festsaal sofort verlassen, alle Glückwünsche abgelehnt und sich an der Feier nicht weiter beteiligt."
Herr Sörgel later explained the "slight" by saying that similar awards in silver had recently be given to officials in nearby Hof and Bayreuth.
But silver awards had been given to others as we know on this day, namely the beaker to Simon Ellner.
A hint as to why these awards were made I suppose is within this statement:
Offiziell aber galt das Fest auch weiterhin als Beweis dafür, dass die Kulmbacher sich uneingeschränkt als selbstbewusste Franken in einem glücklichen Bayern als Teil des Deutschen Reiches empfanden."
The official line was to have the people of Kulmbach seen themselves as being happy, proud, confident Northern (Frankish) Bavarians all part of the German Reich. In Herr Sörgel's case the mission was not fully accomplished. Someone had let down the side within the bureaucracy.
But it also hints to the political motives behind Simon Ellner's got award.
By the by I've also noted that the ceremony may not have been in the open, in the square "Marktplatz" as I'd thought. Within the Beisbart article he mentions that Herr Sörgel left the Hall. "Er hat den Festsaal sofort verlassen" I note that the Town Hall's address is Marktplatz 1, Kulmbach 95326 - Germany. Perhaps that is where it took place?
just wanted to let you all know...mikkochristmas11 and vetraio, your research is not going unnoticed here, my entire family is hanging on each and every post, listening and learning more and more about, as they call it, "the cup".
Every night I bring them new news and research only thanks to the two of you. Thanks for teaching me as well. It is amazing how you are putting together all of these details like it happened yesterday. That is very interesting about "the scandel" must have been embarrassing, as mikkochristmas11 pointed out earlier.
Good night for now! And thanks again!
and vetraio50 I just read you email, thanks you for that! Thanks for the translation!!!
I did not get the Beisbart article though. If you wouldn't mind forwarding that to me vetraio50, I would like to try and translate the whole thing if possible. Although I am sure you brought out all the major points in the email. Thanks again!! Have a great day or night, not sure what it is now by you!!!
It's 2.30 in the afternoon on Sunday!
Hi, all! Just signed in. Have been looking for an email address to Historiker Beisbart for vetraio. I am sure that Herr Beisbart will speak English fluently, and that you could pose your questions of him in English, vetraio. I feel certain he'd be interested in our subject. I have seen him active in Bayreuth and with the Historical Society of Upper Franconia, but haven't yet found a good email address. I will try again on Monday. Also - sorry, vetraio, I thought that you were just racing through the German! I do so appreciate what you sent, sir!!! It was very fine work!!! Once again, your performance is astonishing. Terribly exciting! Bravo! Finally, I will write early next week to the patent centers on this. As stated before, fuller patent documentation might not be extant, because of war damage, but we can certainly try. No doubt my German is amusing. Ha!
BHock45, I'm not sure I understood your last comment. I sent you the original file containing Herr Beisbart's article. It's one of the three attachments. It was sent as an online Word document by the Kulmbach Archive, but it is an exact image of the actual article. If it doesn't open for you, I'd be very happy to send it again. Thank you very much for you very kind words, sir!!! We are just as delighted to work on this fascinating project as you are. Just being careful to do it properly. Shouldn't care for you to present at Antiques Roadshow with inaccurate data. : ) By the way, I would put this cup your safety deposit box.
Take care, gentleman! Pleasant Sunday to all!
Greetings, all! Today, I did the following.
Thanked Kulmbach Archivist.
Checked both the online German Patent and online German TM Databases, with no results. I thus queried the German Patent and TM offices in Munich, Berlin, and Jena via email. I provided both the patent record I had found in the European Patent Database and the information that vetraio found in the Herausgegeben von DM Kaiserl. Patentamt, Volume 30, Part 2 Anbieter Deutschland. Kaiserliches Patentamt, Deutsches Patentamt Verlag C. Heymanns Verlag, 1906. I provided a link to our CW discussion and informed them that we thought the award might well be linked to this invention. I asked for an abstract and a diagram. FYI, The online German Patent Database will be down tomorrow -18 Feb - for service. I just sent my email, so it might take several days for them to get back with me. I will report their response(s) as I receive them.
Tomorrow, I shall try to find Herr Beisbart's email address for vetraio.
A pleasant good night to all!
Many thanks miKKo!
@ Vetraio, Most welcome, sir! My pleasure.
@ Bellin, thank you, sir! For you, too. : )
Good morning, all! Courtesy of the German Patent Office, we now have the original French patent with drawings - in French. There is no English abstract. Patent not showing up in German Patent Office as a German patent, and it doesn't appear in their French records either because it was issued in 1906, and the German patent database didn't start recording French patents until 1920. Emailing original French-language patent to vetraio now. BHock, vetraio is a veteran French teacher, and he'll whiz through this. I have a tougher question for him, though. Why would Ellner patent this in French, but apparently (BIG CAVEAT HERE) not in German? OK, now today is a national holiday in the USA, so I might not be successful today in getting Herr Beibart's email address, but I shall certainly try as soon as it's 8:30 am here. Best wishes for a joyful Monday! : )
Correction: I meant not why in French language, but more properly, why was a French patent applied for at all? From patent documents state that Ellner resided in Germany. I will try to find out today if there could also have been a German patent granted. Applied for and granted two different things!...Later! : )
vetraio50 and mikkochristmas11...I did receive the documents and the emails just want to say thank you again!!! I will look at them tomorrow...very busy weekend! Take care all!!
mikkochristmas11...I will do as you recommended. IF there is anything else you need me to do please ask, I would like to chip in somehow after all you two have done!
Hi BHock and miKKo too!
I think that a reason for searching out a patent in France may well have been the 'pennies'. There's an interesting article on the German Patents Office here:
http://www.porcelainmarksandmore.com/resources/vocabulary/drgm.php
"The acronym D.R.G.M. with or without punctuation stands for Deutsches Reichsgebrauchsmuster, meaning that the design or function of an item was officially registered inside all of the Germany states and not only locally registered as it was the case before the introduction of centralized registration. ......
D.R.G.M. registration was introduced 1891. ..... offered a basic copyright protection for the duration of three years.
D.R.G.M. registered products were protected either for their way of intended use or design only and this did not include patent protection. Patent rights were secured by applying for a Deutsches Reichspatent (D.R.P.), so even if many people use the term 'D.R.G.M-Patent' it is factually wrong. Reason for this mix-up was that the D.R.G.M. registration in colloquial language was also known as 'kleines Reichspatent' which literally stands for 'small Imperial patent' but actually was meant as 'poor people's patent' and made fun of the fact that many manufacturers could not afford the fees needed to register a full patent. One should take into count that German patent registration fees (as was openly criticized during the year 1906) where two and a half times higher than in England - and 36 (!!!) times higher than in the US."
Good morning, all! @ BHock: Sir, your offer is very kind, and it is the language of a habitually kind soul. However, I have spent no monies on this project, and if I had, they would have been very small amounts. Moreover, it was my pleasure! Recall that I play with other people's silver. : ) As for our reward, vetraio and I are going to flip a coin for the cup…. : o ; D
@ Vetraio: Hello there in late afternoon Sydney! You must be exhausted, after the superb job you've done on translating!!! Bravo!!! Late last night before retiring, I opened your email with patent translation draft and began reading. I see what you mean about the verbal representation of the drawings. Definitely a challenge. I decided to sleep on the translation and try to master the sense of the technical portion in the morning before responding. I respond here and now because there are other items in need of response, and for your convenience I also respond here to the translation. RE your translation, if a refinement is needed, it will come to you. I shouldn't presume to even consider suggesting a change. (My French is terrible. Unlike my bit of German, which went quite unused for over twenty years, I have used my French, but little and seldom. What little I have retained is because I have committed various French literary works to heart, and celebrate them once again every now and then. I recall nothing in "Cyrano", or by Antoine de Saint-Exupéry et alia, on stacking stretchers. So, I leave the translation to you - with fullest confidence in our veteran French teacher with very high standards of excellence!)
Now, last night I also set myself to thinking about the fact of a French patent vs a German patent. I remembered about the DRGM too, and was eager to propose it as a hypothesis. (I first encountered it on a German papier-mâché candy container brought back to the states by a U.S. Military man after WWII.) One of the tasks of the day I had set myself before falling asleep was to investigate the set of species of 'protection' that this stretcher invention attained to at the height of its protection. As I indicated the other day, I haven't researched on the European Patent Database for years -- over a decade, so I was quite rusty. Last night I noticed what struck me as a bit odd about the French patent number. I will follow that trail this morning. I also had thought to look more closely at the German 'patent' 'number' we saw in the Google book. Ah, I suppose I must try and understand that nomenclature, too. (Unless you wish to undertake that. : ) I hope someone in the German Patent Office will speak to that, because I did indicate that I had doubts that a German patent had been issued.
Now, vetraio, what do you make about this description of “M.” [@ BHock: French for “Monsieur”, syn.“Herr”] Ellner: “M. Simon ELLNER résidant en Allemagne.” Present participle. Is this idiomatic in French patents granted to non-French citizens? Note the proxy submission at patent close. However, I don’t mean to make extra work for you. Just throwing it out there as food for thought.
Thank you both for all your hard work and great courtesy! A pleasure!
@ BHock: Just a word of advice. Buffalo is the snow plow capital of the nation for a reason. I hear that they are getting anxious about New Jersey hogging all the snow. : ) Do please take care!
P. S. Vetraio's English description of the Ellner stacking stretcher device is captivating. He describes the features of the stretcher, the technical improvement(s) it represents, and the great significance that this device would have for the safe transport of wounded military men. I don't copy and paste this English description into CW because that would be quite presumptuous for me. However, I just had to let you know that you are in for a treat! : ) Now, to work!....
One advantage of the French patent over the DRGM would be the duration of the concession of the Patent Grant: 20 years for the French patent.
I accidentally posted Comment No. 123 before I could refine it. Sorry, I was in the process of amending it. The current concession duration of a French patent is 20 years. I don’t know the exact duration of the 1906 French patent concession period.
In 1906 Germany, the DRGM (not a patent) could be renewed once, bringing the possible concession period to 6 years. Besides the fact that in 1906 the fees associated with securing a French patent were lower than those required to secure a German patent, there also were significant limitations on German patent concessions. It appears that a proper German patent could be revoked after the first three years if the patent had not been 'worked', or if the owner of a patent said to be in the public interest had declined to grant any use license of same. Moreover, if the patented device were being 'exploited' more outside of Germany than in Germany, the German patent could be revoked.
Finally, French patents sometimes involved significant perks. The following linked article is excellent.
http://eh.net/encyclopedia/article/khan.patents
No longer find the French patent number odd. Now onto German nomenclature.... : (
Reporting my failure to find Herr Beisbart's email address. As discussed earlier, I have seen him active in an association of scholars and elsewhere, but that doesn't mean that he currently has a university staff position. If we found his place of business, I should think that we could legitimately contact him by emailing an official contact person for that entity.
Please note that in Germany one may describe oneself as an 'Historiker' even when one is an amateur. Now, by no means do I mean to imply that Herr Beisbart's work is anything but professional and scholarly; however, it might be the case that he is a member of the Ministry (as in Priest or Minister), or that he has studied History extensively, but does not practice it professionally.
I have used only casual, respectful methods to discover the email address. I detest those 'for-hire' abusive search engines that invade people's privacy for money, and never use them! (It’s also contrary to our family honor code, and I’d have a hard time finding another group of individuals as eccentric as my family!) It seems that in Germany even professional email addresses are not disseminated as freely as they are in the USA, so I think that any further pursuit that I might conduct might be counted invasive. I note that I did contact the home office (Germany) of the Goethe Institut, and also the Washington, D.C. branch. I was hoping that they'd at least pass my email address to Herr Beisbart. At this point, vetraio, I would advise you to send your queries via snail mail. My mail to England takes forever to arrive, but not so my mail to Belgium and the Netherlands. I’d expect German mail to be fast, as well. Certainly, if I hear from the Goethe Insitut, I’ll let you know ASAP. Best wishes for success!!! : )
@ BHock: Sir, ref the following text, which I copied from your Comment No. 4 above, do you remember the exact source?
"Dr Max Mason & Albert Walla. MalftattBurbach. 16/11 04. - W. 22975th 30e. 170679th Stretcher with detachable rail ends. - Simon Ellner. Kulmbach."
A correction here. The first word is spelled "Malstatt", I think. The 1911 edition of the "Encyclopedia Britannica" described the Malstatt-Burbach area as an industrial town that was "little more than a long and narrow row of manufactories and workmen's houses".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malstatt-Burbach
I wonder if the stretcher could have been manufactured here, or if they had plans to make it there. Who was Dr. Max Mason? I doubt he's the gentleman in the following link. Did he serve the role of owner (or part owner, partner), investor, manufacturer, mentor, German Advocate, publisher, editor, advisor? Simon Ellner is the listed on the French patent as both "Inventor" and "Applicant", and the only other person listed on the patent was [M.] G. Faugé, his French Advocate/Proxy "par procuration".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Mason
Albert Walla? I found him on a French patent.
Tomorrow, I plan to work only on the German 'patent' nomenclature used on BHock's quote in Comment No. 4. Goodnight to all! : )
Careful! These were early moments. bHock's search was 'Simon Ellner KGL' and I think he copied a block of German text and put that into a translator.
mikkochristmas11...I am sorry, I am having trouble following. Maybe I am a little confused. vetraio50 is correct though.
Good morning, gentlemen!
Thanks much for the counsel and keen observation, vetraio! Yes, I too thought that the origin of text was most probably an old German text - the 'f-looking' 's'.
I should now like to examine the original text and explore the other persons associated with Ellner and/or this device. So, BHock, could you please try and remember -- way back through all the snow, etc.! -- and recapture for me that text reported in your Comment No. 4? Actually, a link to same would do nicely. When you have time, please? I just entered "Simon Ellner KGL" and got the following Google book. Thank you very much!!!...Will work on this aspect later this morning....Take care. : )
http://books.google.com/books?id=h_w1swDm2DMC&pg=PR41&lpg=PR41&dq=Simon+Ellner+KGL&source=bl&ots=DcsoinHsRD&sig=taTVT8ReTCPlc0hRdP-bMBgPjwQ&hl=en&sa=X&ei=9uQkUez_Eomu9ATa4YEY&ved=0CDgQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=Simon%20Ellner%20KGL&f=false
Hello, BHock. I think that I have probably found the source of your Comment No. 4: "The Dr Max Mason & Albert Walla. MalftattBurbach. 16/11 04. - W. 22975th 30e. 170679th Stretcher with detachable rail ends. - Simon Ellner. Kulmbach." It appears that you conflated two separate 'patent' entries. "30 d. 170739" and "30 e. 170679". Since these two patents do not appear related, I will refrain from making corrections to "30 d. 170739". At your convenience, please confirm that this is the source from which you took the info provided in your Comment No. 4. Thanks.
http://books.google.com/books?id=-NI1AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA455&lpg=PA455&dq=%22Simon+Ellner%22+KGL&source=bl&ots=klN2Sf6pWq&sig=-N30rR2rqqRWFiARWaZnxuSiftw&hl=en&sa=X&ei=flglUdffN-Px2QWo-IGoAg&ved=0CDQQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=%22Simon%20Ellner%22%20KGL&f=false
Hi miKKo! This is what I believe happened with that search. The two items were on a list. The search engine compacted the information into a two line grab and deleted sections of both items. These were then copied and translated I think. It is something I've noted before using internet research. In a way we probably need a term to describe it. I've been trying to think of a suitable term. I believe in this instance the two items were perhaps separated by fifty to sixty years or perhaps I. Have that wrong. I liked your term 'conflated'. Perhaps 'metonymic e-result', 'incongruent e-conflation'? The mind boggles!
Thank you for your courtesy, vetraio! I returned this morning to these German patent publications (which I see available through two different Google Book interfaces), signed into Google, and did some experiments. The 'metareader' that a search function in one interface uses grabs two contiguous entries and conflates them sequentially. However, the 'patent' numbers are distinct, and so the entries can be distinguished from one another. Since we're working with German text, let's confect a term like one of those very salient but unwieldy for the English-speaking long German words. How about -- for this species of e-metacrime -- something like: googlemetaindiscretionubercontiguityperlectorimportunitascontraontikpublication ? Or, maybe not....Thanks again for your great courtesy, vetraio, and for the delightful wit! : o
And yours, dear miKKo! Love it!
Then there's the one where someone (or a very clever machine) reads old newspapers and transcribes printed columns of text into digital gibberish.
(Or for even better results, German Black Letter!)
This then becomes part of a google search result.
A 'googelhop'!
mikkochristmas11....sorry the little one is in the tub right now. But I did find it...
http://books.google.com/books?id=Gu8hAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA215&lpg=PA215&dq=simon+ellner+kulmbach&source=bl&ots=02EPIVJoSS&sig=ikrcoC5D9XpAiZrIhCAT7gjZ-AQ&hl=en&sa=X&ei=zKcmUbGGB-qP0QGx-4DgAQ&ved=0CEcQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=simon%20ellner%20kulmbach&f=false
I believe it is from a medical journal printed in 1906, entirely in german.
Hello, gentlemen!
@ Vetraio: "Googlehop" - delightful word! How about adding an "f" to the end in funereal tribute to the Black Letter "Eszett", since the Eszett being mistaken for an "f" is a powerful occasion for significant error, and we are thus very much in keeping with the sense of high mischief. Throw in an "#" and an "{" to represent intermittent, random failure to scan and obstinacy. And, finally, tack a terminal "8" to the tail to represent the infinite capacity for returning an ever-increasing set of erroneous results. Googlehopf#{8
@ BHock: Thank you very much for this great link, BHock!!!
I am convinced that the patent book occasioned the conflation I identified in Comment No. 4 because I was able to recreate it exactly, but I am delighted to encounter this latest link. In my Comment No. 77, I indicated that a contemporary medical journal that covered new medical equipment might cover Ellner’s invention. Last night I looked for some time into the history of 1890’s-1918 German emergency medical response procedures and equipment. I discovered many things, but not this particular document. Nor did it pull in my Google search using the search string you used. I am going to ask the guys who service my computer why. This link provides valuable information that falls within the parameter of last night’s search string, and the fact that I couldn’t see it is intolerable. I have much security software on my laptop, and I fear that I might well be missing some important things because of it. I am appalled that I couldn’t access this. GRRRR. Bravo, BHock!!! Sir, please, please in future post your links. : ) Thank you!
@ Vetraio and BHock: Just had a two hour conversation with an old school friend. Her father is a Professor who in childhood immigrated to America from Germany - when membership in the Hitler Youth movement was pressed upon youth in Germany. He is a polyglot and a very great scholar. His son is a university scholar and polyglot as well, and is a professional Historian. Not too long ago he spent a significant time at a German university. They might be able to put us in contact with Herr Beisbart.
Goodnight, gentlemen! Thanks for the courtesy and good cheer!
mikkochristmas11...perhaps because I am using a different browser than you? Let me test that out.
Here is another link, have you seen this one. Maybe I should put together a list of sources at this point so I don't keep reusing stuff. I have just been so overwhelmed lately, I am sorry if I seem ignorant.
http://books.google.com/books?id=-NI1AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA4&lpg=PA4&dq=%22simon+ellner%22+kulmbach&source=bl&ots=klN2TfbmWq&sig=eD8MRMkhpSC-ENs5Vp6yw-4oloI&hl=en&sa=X&ei=e_EmUZWrFMy10AH4_ICICg&ved=0CDcQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=%22simon%20ellner%22%20kulmbach&f=false
mikkochristmas11... do you have Norton or McAfee security installed on your machine? Anything that runs live security or realtime security will surely prevent you from seeing certain pages.
Hi, BHock! Many, many thanks for your kind assistance! I used the link in Comment No. 139 before. I will surely raise with the laptop service firm the issue of the link provided in Comment No. 135 not appearing....I shouldn't care to impose upon you tonight, sir -- It's very late in your neck of the woods!!! -- but when you have time during the next few days, could you please let me know what browser you use? Is it Google or Google Chrome? The superb firm that services my laptop -- I'm an absolute idiot about computer processes and programs -- will adjust my systems if needed. If you have any other great Ellner/etc. links, at your convenience, it would be very fine to have them. But please don't worry and rush! I can hardly believe all the snow the East Coast has gotten -- and after Sandy....Take of yourself. Rest well. This cup will still be here in the morning. (And I might even have recovered my composure by then.) : o
Yes I figured you are knowledgable about computers, did not mean to insult you. I have been using google chrome and google as the search engine lately. I just find it to be faster. Ok talk to you later!
Ah, BHock, you did not insult me! On the contrary, I was most pleased by your kind suggestions, and by the knowledge that you used Google and Google Chrome in your searches -- which is what I use. This indicates to me that something is amiss on my end. I am a computer idiot and will call the service firm. Thank you!!! : D Take care!
This may be silly but: if you search for "simone ellner" you do not get the same results. I am sure you are typing "simon ellner" but is word prediction or your language setting changing it? Just a theory.
Not silly at all! Thank you very much, BHock!!! : ) Hope you get some rest tonight! : o
Good morning, all! The Librarian at the Goethe Institut central office in Germany has reported that she has tried to locate an email address for Herr Beisbart but could not. She did, however, send me a confirmed postal address. I will forward that to vetraio this morning.
By the great courtesy of the Munich branch of the German Patent Office, we now have the original German patent, which was secured about two and a half years before the the French patent was. I haven't read the German patent and don't plan on translating it. But I will forward it shortly to both BHock and vetraio.
My friends in New York might be able to produce an email for Herr Beisbart, and if so, I'll pass it on to you both. Best wishes! : )
Good morning, all! Can't chat much - arms messed up - but must report lest someone else spend much time trying to find information that I already have!
First, by the great courtesy of the Research Librarian at the Goethe Institute - Munich office and a gentleman from the Historisch.Verein.Oberfranken, we now have a good email address for Herr Beisbart. Will send to vetraio ASAP.
First a note so that no one reduplicates an effort. When researching the development of 'ambulance' procedures/equipment/methods in Germany 1890-1918, I noticed one very interesting feature was that early emergency response teams were once located along railway lines.
Best wishes for a beautiful Monday, Later! : D
thanks mikkochristmas11!
Hi, BHock! Sorry, missed your comment this morning, sir! You're most welcome!
Just returned from appointment out of town. Tomorrow, I'll check in and see what's up. Later! : D
Hello, all! I have inquiries out, and three more to go. Received word from the great scholar in New York (who has had and still has pneumonia), and he referred me to a great source that is not held in any nearby libraries. As soon as I get the material, I will share it with BHock and vetraio via email, as we have been sorting through this tough puzzle offline. I should like to thank my wonderful friend "M" for her joyful and generous help! Thank you, dear M!!! Apologies to all for my slowness! Arms and hands have to be babied now. Best wishes! See you soon! : )
Hello, all! Posting my final comments below. I apologize for my tardiness – I have been both unable to resolve things neatly and unwilling to relinquish the search; however, and after a very long time, much spent in significant illness, I have brought my researches to a close. Follows what I have. Vetraio will no doubt report on his very valuable exchange with Herr Helmut Beisbart in a separate posting.
I encountered a most generous gentleman during my research, and the information he gave me drove the greater part of the remainder of my research. The gentleman’s name is Herr Holger Richter, and he is with Hermann Historica in Munich. Herr Richter has handled the sale of some of the possessions of Prinz Alfons von Bayern, and has significant knowledge of the man, the family, and the milieu. I present his response to my email. (Unfortunately, the graphic of a crest that Herr Richter provided will not paste to this thread, so I have omitted it.)
**********
…Yes, the monogram is well known, and in my opinion this piece was a gift by Prinz Alfons and not to him. He was a protector of many gun clubs in Germany. And possibly this could be the context of this gift. Unfortunately we cannot do further researches. Maybe the museum and archive of the “Deutscher Schützenbund (DSB)” at Schloss Callenberg (Coburg) can give you some information about early shooting events in Kulmbach.
…
Stiftung der Herzog von Sachsen-Coburg und Gotha´schen Familie
Herzoglicher Kunstbesitz SCG
Schloss Callenberg
Callenberg 1 96450 Coburg
Telefon 09561-8145-0
Telefax 09561-8145-20
mail@schloss-callenberg.de
http://www.schloss-callenberg.de
About the records of the Munich company Wollenweber I have no information. For further research please contact the “Bayerisches Hauptstaatsarchiv”:
Schönfeldstraße 5-11, 80539 München
(Postfach 22 11 52, 80501 München)
Tel. 089/28638-2596
Fax 089/28638-2954
E-Mail: poststelle@bayhsta.bayern.de
Best regards,
Holger Richter
**********
-- I should like to point out that Herr Richter did not find grammatical or spelling fault with the inscription. Neither did a scholar friend of mine who is a native of Bavaria. Compare this to Herr Beisbart’s opinion, as expressed to Vetraio. Vetraio has yet to post this info. (He was waiting on me, alas.) --
OK, I made two inquiries of the DSB – one through Schloss Callenberg and one directly to a principal of the organization. I received no response to my queries.
I made several further historical inquiries but received no response. BHock has a list of my queries – except for the final inquiries on historic German silver and the query of the German Consulate. The institutions, persons, and queries would be too tedious to recount here. I made no advances.
Another very generous person! from Hermann Historica, Maria Burdick, provided me with contact information for an eminent scholar on German silver, Herr Helmut Seling. I was unable to contact Herr Seling; communications were returned as failed. Perhaps the contact information is out of date. I don’t know. I was unable to find any later contact info. Perhaps if someone who has a fair command of German wants to pursue this line, he might find it fruitful.
Dr. Helmut Seling
c/o: Kunsthandlung H. W. Seling
Oskar-von-Miller-Ring 31, 80333 München
089 / 284865
kunsthandlungseling@gmx.de
Ms. Burdick also recommended that a good way to find an Historian who specialized in the history of Prinz Alfons might be to contact the Institute for Bavarian History at the Ludwigs-Maximilians-Universität: http://www.bayerischegeschichte.uni-muenchen.de/dasinstitut/kontakt/index.html
I recommend that a competent speaker of the German language pursue this course. My own rummages here were inadequate.
I made several further historical inquiries but made no advances. BHock has a list of the better part of my queries. He doesn’t have a list of the final inquiries on historic German silver and the query of the German Consulate. The institutions, persons, and queries would be too tedious to recount here. I made no advances.
Finally, I encountered a descendant of a large, prestigious German silver house, but was not able to advance my inquiries on Wollenweber or Herr Seling.
Thank you very much, BHock and Vetraio for your great courtesy, good cheer, and patience!!! I am very sorry for the delays. Perhaps Freiheit would be willing to undertake writing to the DSB, the Bayerisches Hauptstaatsarchiv, and the Institute for Bavarian History. She is a native speaker, and very kind. My German is laughable, and some of my English inquiries have been greedy.
SEASON's GREETINGS BHOCK !!!!!