Silver gilt ladies portret pendant | ||
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Posted 12 years ago
Agram.m
(762 items)
A silver gilt (vermeil) medallion pendant : measuring 7.5 x 6 cm excl ball.
At the front a beautiful fine painted ladies portrait.
Behind glass with a polished edge.
At the rear there is space for a flower or lock of hair. Here, the glass
a crack. Tested with a spanish silver certification for the level 915/000
Let me ask you:
HOW TO FIGURE OUT IF THIS PORTRET IS PAINTED ON IVORY?
PLEASE HELP ME DATING?
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AR8Jason, thanks for your attention and loving
Newtimes thanks again for your interest and loving
Vetraio50 also thanks for your attention and loving
Is it possible to remove the glass and look at the back of the painting?
davyd286, that just the difficulty, I don' t dare because of the broken glass.
I would guess porcelain because of the smoothness but really hard to tell from photos. Maybe Moonstone will have some suggestions.
AmberRose it's definitely hand painted but I have to wait on comment of another viewer. In any way thanks a lot for your always and steady interest in all my items.
Of course! You know I just love your taste! I only make somewhat e educated guesses. It's always beautiful viewing when you post!
AmberRose you give always nice compliments and in many cases we have definitevely the same taste. I always enjoy to see that other collectors like my items as I'm enjoying theirs. It's still difficult for me to find the good words to be able to tell what I want to describe or want to say. I reasonable understand English but still it remains a foreign laguage for me and in some cases it's diffucilt to find words I realy want to communicate. But in two way's CW is very good for me.
1. To share the most beautiful antique jewelry and to learn from other collectors and 2. To learn better English\American.
Moonstonelover21 thanks for looking and for loving
bratjdd thanks for your interest and loving
lundy, nice to "meet" you here for the first time I think and thanks for loving
RussTenale, also nice to "meet"you here for the first time and thanks for your interest and loving
Who is so sweet to look at my questions relating this pendant and possibly answer them???
ginger59 thanks for your attention and loving
inky thanks a lot for your interest and loving
Hi Agram. If you are looking for an opinion...opinion only...I do not think she is worth the investment. Too many questions. Too many others out there that are prettier. Only my two cents!
AmberRose thanks for your honest opinion I appriciate it and I will think about it before I do definitive steps. Thanks for your comment
Hello, Agram! A blessed Easter to you and your family!
I haven't been on CW much lately, but I just had to take a peek at what you had just posted. : ) So glad I did!
Beautiful pendant! Are you sure that it is Spanish? I really don't know anything about Spanish silver, but the Spanish star hallmarks that I've seen all have a 'dot' in the middle of the star, and the star in your hallmark does not have that 'dot' or depression/negative space in the star. I mention this because the portait does not seem to me to represent a Spanish lady. I could easily be mistaken on both counts!!! I know nothing of Spanish silver. And I do not know enough about Spanish portraiture to have an intelligent opinion on whether this portrait or painting is Spanish!
It is hard to tell from the photographs if the portrait is painted on ivory. It is not painted on porcelain. It is either ivory or bone. Observe the 'pores' in the area to the right of the lower portion of the décolletage - the dark 'pores'/'dots'. That is consistent with bone. If it has an irregular grain of 'lines', or 'cross-hatching', it is probably ivory. It would be easier to tell from an examination of the back of the portrait, but unless the back panel is hinged and opens, I don't think that you can do this without damaging the pendant. I would use your jeweler's loupe to examine the portrait closely for signs of pores/dots, lines, and cross-hatching.
There are tests that can help determine if something is ivory, but unless your pendant opens in the back, I think an examination of the surface of the portrait will be the safest way to proceed in this case. AR8Jason was very good at distinguishing ivory from bone. You could email him a link to this show and tell item and ask him.
http://www.wikihow.com/Tell-Ivory-from-Bone
http://www.e-conservationline.com/content/view/947
Hello MiKKoChristmas11,
Thanks for your detailed answer and loving. And of course for you and your family a bleshed continuation of Easter.
What a fantastic and comprehensive answer you gave me. I appreciate that very much.
If I'm really good look at the star mark than I see a dot in the upper round. I've looked everywhere for this kind of mark and I came eventually to the following countries: Spain, Russia and Italy. But I'm not exactly sure.
I also, as you have advised, with a strong loupe looked at the portrait. That's important, because as I said it's not out of the mounting to retrieve.
I do notice some dots but also dashes (like a kind of scratches) in the material. All in all, I still have no definitive answer. But I do, as you suggested, think or bone or ivory.
It is about time I had a good digital loupe purchase. But until now I buy for the same money yet I still prefer a nice piece of jewelry!
Let me tell you a little that I have calledthis jewelry a pendant portrait. But actually, this "jewel" is too big to wear as a pendant. The sizes are almost 3 "x 2.2".
If you have more information to find me, I of course appreciate.
Once again thank you very much for all the effort you've done so far for me to provide more information! I will ask AR8Jason for his advise although I know he was deleted from CW short time ago, which is of course very pitty because he knows a lot to tell about antique jewelry.
Hello, Agram! Thank you very much for your good wishes and the very kind compliment! I was very pleased that I could help a little bit with this beautiful 'miniature' painting. Ah, as usual, you have done significant research!
Following your comments, I did take a brief look at Russia and Italy, but I'm afraid that I am not educated enough in non-American silver to have an intelligent opinion on the origin of the gilt silver frame. I might make some further comments - also uneducated opinions, though hopefully they are less uneducated opinions than the opinion I ventured earlier on the country of origin of the frame.
The woman's costume suggests late 18th century to me. The frame is consistent with many miniature frames of that period. Further, I should be surprised to find this low cut a gown on a Spanish lady of this period. If I were you, I would focus on identifying the style of the gown and the style of the jewels - those adorning the sleeve, around her neck, on her ears, and what I think might well be a jeweled belt. I think that the style of wearing jewels in this fashion will perhaps help to indicate the country. The lady is 'drenched' in pearls! Her hair is powdered. Lace 'hair dressings' (A very poor phrase for a 'veil'! but I can't remember all the names for the different types of sizable lace pieces used in the hair in this period!) were not uncommon then in a number of countries. This lady need not have been Spanish to wear a lace veil thusly. I hope this makes sense. Wish I could do more here. : )
…About AR8: Yes, Agram, I was shocked and very saddened to hear about this. He is a very knowledgeable and fine collector, but more than that, he was a very generous man. A very fine man. I am proud to have known him, and I hope to retain the honor of his acquaintance. It is a bit insulting to say that he cannot be replaced, but indeed I think that he cannot be replaced.
You both seem to have very good answers, maybe the piece has been re-set in another country later on? I do also think the lady has pretty late 18th century looks, and it is hard to picture her from Spain, but these ladies painted were mostly ladies with titles no? and ladies with titles went from country to country depending on who their marriage would be to- so perhaps it is an unattainable answer to know exactly where she is from, without knowing who she is! My first reaction said Austrio-Hungarian, or maybe British, her accessories and fashion are not as opulent as the French court ladies...
If she is made from ivory, perhaps Russian is a good answer, with Siberia's mammoth ivory supply- although I cannot I see what mikko sees with the porous nature of the painting. Wish I could offer more insight than just how she looks- I don't have much background on ivory or these little painted masterpieces, only appreciation for them.
Hello, Luisa and Agram! I have a deadline but just saw Luisa's excellent comments, so I will now post the information that I received from AR8 late last night. Agram, he indicated that he was very pleased to assist you. Before I do post his wisdom, a few comments to Luisa....
Luisa, I too considered the possibility that this might have been remounted, but didn't state it. I thought that the lady might be Austrian, Russian, or 'German'. I hadn't considered Hungary, which is an oversight on my part! Excellent! Yes, I had considered the marriage factor, and that was one of the reasons why I had provided a 'negative proof' only - i.e., that I didn't think that this lady was Spanish. I still don't think that any lady in Spain would have dared to wear such a low neckline. Of course, I could well be wrong!
You bring up an excellent point on the material, Luisa! Hadn't considered the Siberian mammoth. Whatever animal supplied this, the bone or tusk had to have been rather large.
Now on to AR8's excellent comment: "On this piece, the information that 'dots AND dashes' are seen would tend to indicate bone, not ivory. The dots are the pores you mentioned, and the dashes are the side of exposed veins in the bone."
You can see the dots, Luisa, if you enlarge the second photo and look at the darkened area to the right of the base of the décolletage. I had to look closely for them.
I will say this in parting. Whatever the source of the material, the surface would have had to be primed for paint, otherwise the paint would not have adhered. This involved abrading the surface. Sometimes if you look very closely at a painted ivory or painted bone, it almost looks as if it had been painted in Pointillism because the depressions grab and retain the paint better. So, the perhaps the process of abrading might have caused the 'non-dot/non-pore' marks -- the "dashes". Perhaps better photos could be had and AR8 again consulted?
Best wishes!!! : )
Thank you Mikko!! You know so much about this stuff, very nice to have extra info : ) It is fun bouncing all these possibilities off with you. I don't think I'd like antiquities so much if there wasn't any mystery in them!
Hello Mikko and Luisa,
Of course both thank you very much for the time and effort that you have devoted to the study of this pendant and the analyzes that you have made. This is indeed the most charming of CW namely with other collectors study of antique jewelry. This gives much more pleasure and satisfaction than just placing expensive jewelry. Which is not so difficult when furthermore this is also your profession. Than you can find an easy way here to advertise your collection.
It's interesting just to see how a jewel is made, where and by whom are the riddles that these ancient things makes so interesting. And Luisa I know a little bit of history in fashion and I know that this low cut a gown was often worn by noble ladies and/or ladies of the court. Those ladies worn those I robes also in Spain.
I really like that you Mikko, asked also Kevin's opinion (AR8Jason) in this case. I will definitely mail him to thank him, I miss him already on this site.
Again thank you both a thousand times I'm very greatful and hope to "see"and hear a lot of times you both here on CW.
BELLIN68 and birdie thank you both for your interest and loving
birdie
Ah, thank you so very much Luisa and Agram, for your very kind words and thoughts!!! I have been away, and only just now responding. Thank you both for the joy and courtesy you bring to CW. Each encounter is a blessing. : )
miKKoChristmas11 I'v missed you, glad you are back, thanks for your nice words. Have a good weekend!
Aeon thanks for your interest