Loetz Tropfen vase closeups | ||
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Posted 12 years ago
dasullywon
(62 items)
Hello friends. By request here are some closeup shots of my Loetz "Mit Tropfen" vase, to show the banding in the blue iridescent finish. The height is 6" (15.2 cm).
I admit that my logic for calling it "Vesuvian" based on the Volcano shape is purely speculation, and I am leaving it to the experts. Thanks! :)
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Thanks DAS
This is an excellent piece ... base glass is bronze ... can not clearly making out the mauve (heliotrope) stripes I was hoping to see ... but it that still remains my preference for the dekor / era .... will see what I can find in the musterschnitte on that ....
The master list? Cool word. You have the Cantz book too? I need my own copy of the musterschnitte (if that's what you are referring to?). I am very curious to know what you find.
there is the catalog page books from hatje cantz. those pages are a bit of everything from 1880's to 1930's. then there is the newer book by Jitka. that book can still be found in the Czech republic but it's very difficult to get. Worth it though. It's like 200 dollars give or take. that series covers existing line drawings from 1900-1915 although most of 1901-1903 is missing and most of 1913-15 is also missing.
http://www.worldcat.org/title/lotz-serie-ii-sklarske-strihy-z-let-1900-az-1914-ii-svazek-1-dil-archiv-sklarskych-strihu-firmy-lotz-lotz-serie-ii-glas-musterschnitte-aus-den-jahren-1900-bis-1914-ii-band-1-teil-archiv-der-glas-musterschnitte-der-firma-lotz-loetz-series-ii-paper-patterns-for-glass-from-1900-to-1914-ii-volume-1-part-the-archive-of-loetz-paper-patterns-for-glass/oclc/780139533
Thanks GSO, I will put those on my list.
All three - Beautiful!!
Very nice example...decor was created for Paris 1900 according to some ref material. The striations range from subtle to pronounced in the examples I have seen. There is more going on than what is immediately obvious and they are best enjoyed in hand. I have only owned one example and it wasn't as nice as this. They are often found with furnace cinder bits imbedded and the iridescence seems delicate compared to other lines.
Thanks Mr. T. This one does have a few little black cinder-flecks in the finish, but overall it is very good. I did guess 1900 for the date, but knowing it was created for the Paris exposition (1900) is excellent information.
We were all saying how this vase looks a lot like the Vesuvian vase you posted. So what makes a Vesuvian a Vesuvian? If not the shape and the tropfen then what? Does this decor have its' own name?
I stand corrected...by myself. I have a rare Loetz book by Ernest Ploil published in 1993. The book is centered on the Loetz Paris 1900 Exhibit. Its been years since I referred to it. A vase with this decoration is in that book. That much I remembered but in reviewing it, it states this decor was created in 1899 and exhibited in Paris in 1900. Here is a link I posted to the photo. I also sent this to Dan should he choose to use it. The decors name seem to imply its describing the vase coloration. The addition of the tadpoles would seem to make it Vesuvian and Heliotrope mit dunkleblau und silber...which had been mentioned in the earlier post by SteveS.
Hopefully the photo can be viewed here.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/loetzabbate/8898518174/
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=141342749388087&set=a.115277701994592.1073741830.100005370884451&type=1&theater
Tony, if you look at the large shape book by jitka vesuvian is referred to as a decor some of the time but not all of the time with the shapes with drops and other decors are called out in teh same piece including crete mit trophen.
Vesuvian appears to be a separate decor not the shape.
I still have doubts that they got the decor right in that book. the shape doesn't match the piece. (and from what I can tell they are basing the decor strictly off a line drawing) I don't have that book and don't know if those pics are showing the originals from the exhibit or not, If they are, I can't argue, I admit I am wrong, but if they're not.. I doubt it's correct. Because from what I've seen from the shape books the shapes are extremely precise with dimples and how many dimples and how many drops ect ect.
and just because I am already on a path of being very contrary, I also don't think this looks piece looks anything like that decor in the book. Dan has the piece in hand he'd probably know better than anyone if that's really what the decor looks like in person but from the photos.. not so much imho.
Apologies for my contrarian stance on this but I call em as I see em. :)
Greatsnowyowl...no offense taken. Thats why we are all here. To learn and grow and drool and gawk. :-))
I have held one of these pieces in hand and I think we have the decor right. I'm not sure that Dan's photos accurately depict the decor/ color variations and striations. Dan send it over to me and I'll get you some pics ASAP but returning it may take a while!
Maybe I wasn't clear. I believe this piece is indeed Vesuvian but with an unusual coloration that appears to be Heliotrope mit dunkleblau und silber. So a combination of decors? Im not sure we aren't in agreement just not using the same descriptors...
Hi Mr T
Thanks for your thoughts.
I "see" the piece on Kralik-glass.com as being "Heliotrope" with "Dark blue glass and a Silver iridescent" finish.
This would make the Heliotrope Dekor synonymous with the Blue and purple linear finish. Hence the Heliotrope mit Bronce in the previous posting ...
Depends on how you interpret the syntax ...
Hope this is helpful
My main argument here is about the use of the term Vesuvian. I think people have been using that as a descriptor, for all kinds of glass with drops, incorrectly from what I see in the line drawing book. Vesuvian is used only a few times out of the many times you see these shapes with drops. Most of the time the book just describes the piece as with drops not Vesuvian .Yet we use Vesuvian for everything with drops. I think this is a mistake. I think Vesuvian is a very particular decor on some pieces with drops.
I remember a point with in the last few years when it was generally believed we had most of the line drawings and that they must not be very precise. Then we get Jitka's book and suddenly we see there are a lot of design drawings and They ARE very precise. We also know we are missing quite a few as well. I think the carelessness with the term Vesuvian stems from that. But, if all glass pieces with drops in this fashion were meant to be Vesuvian would they not all be labeled as such? I see one line drawing with two different vesuvian decors listed and then a range of common decors, like silberiris and crete glatt, others might have a list of common decors and never mention vesuvian.
to me that says that it is NOT the shape that determines vesuvian. it is a decor.
My second point is that if this piece from the 1900 exhibition is being identified in that book by line drawing, then I think they have the line drawing incorrect because they are not the same. The line drawing should reflect the dimples. It's the same general shape but there would have been an exact line drawing for this shape with the dimples as well with the various decors used on it. If they are saying this piece is Heliotrope with silver ect ect, because there are only two decors listed under that shape and they have bound that piece to the line drawing because it was somewhat similar and they couldn't find anything else. then it would stand to reason that the decors listed are not the same as what you'd necessarily find on the shape with dimples and the shape without dimples would have been what was at the paris exhibit.
I do not have the book about the Paris 1900 exhibit. is the piece shown in that book the actual piece from the exhibit in a museum somewhere or has it been extrapolated from line drawing?
the other possibility is that the shape with dimples was shown at the Paris exhibit as well but that line drawing did not survive.
the other thing about the line drawing is that it shows a feathered decor. of the two decors listed the heliotrope mit silber etc, sure sounds like the kind of language they'd use on a feathered piece.
I don't know, I could be totally wrong and off base but it doesn't add up to me.
Hi GSO ... (or would you prefer Mary? :-) )
Just a thought ... do you have a reference to Venusian ... think it rings a bell somewhere in the context of the link you posted earlier ... but I can't track it at present ...
Cheers
Thanks again everyone, and especially Dr. Al; it appears that the discussion has come full circle since in my original post I said "I am 99.9% sure this is actually Loetz Vesuvian, and in a color I think is either "Delphi" or cobalt silberiris"
So I agree with Alfredo, which puts me in pretty good company as far as the discussion goes. Since I learned most of what I know from Dr. Al it probably is no surprise that we agree. What makes me happiest however is the fact that I have started such a fine argument, and have learned even more about Loetz in the process. So whatever we decide (if that is possible) I want to thank you all again. :)
Mary??? It's Alisa. :) Although Mary is a perfectly pleasant name. You can call me whatever you like as long as you establish what that is so I know what to answer to ;)
I am kind of unsure as to what you're asking for though?
I spent about 6 hours reading Loetz series II Paper patterns from 1900-1914 the other night reading all descriptions of the early years (looking for references to vesuvian outside of drop patterns) there were none. I did establish that vesuvian is associated with drop patterns. but not all drop patterns are associated with the decor vesuvian.
This is the only reference I have been going off of. It's a new reference.
Because of Vesuvian being called out as a decor on SOME pieces with drops but not all, I think it should be reevaulated if all dropped pieces should be assumed to be vesuvian. It appears to be a rarity from the line drawings.
DAS ... It is a discussion ... don't see any signs of an argument ...
Excellent piece ...
:-)
Alisa
Was thinking the piece on Loetz.com may be a Venusian misplaced under Vesuvian ...
I meant discussion more than argument, sorry. I have never heard of the Venusian decor, but I did find an interesting definition online.
A favorite in Latino cultures, the Venusian body type is typically full-bodied, and sensual.
Vases are often full-bodied and sensuous... For what it's worth.
d'oh.. I understand now. Mary.. Gotcha. LOL sometimes I am slow.
Sensual sensuous; whatever.
I hadn't heard of it either and I don't remember seeing it yesterday reading thru the decors, I was going to spend some more time with the books before answering.
but the venus figurines are full bodied figurines from the prehistoric era. Fertility symbols. they're basically little balls with boobs. thighs and a head.
I still couldn't find a hint of venusian. Where did you find that one? (or are you playing word games again? LOL)
Here are a couple of the shapes from the book for example.
in this first one Vesuvian is called out twice as a decor but importantly so is Crete glatt mit creta which so often is what the baseline of Vesuvian seems to be seen as.
https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/KNxpGMINqgVvnCHqTAEJ_fiepaC6HmOqHRqF2S98L-U?feat=directlink
vesuvian called out as *one* of the decors.
https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/bMJcvitBBKDeLEYOd1lC-_iepaC6HmOqHRqF2S98L-U?feat=directlink
If it would help I could also link to a few more with drops but without vesuvian mentioned at all. Vesuvian is mentioned VERY few times that I could find.
to me it implies it is a rare decor. Not something that shows up as often as we give it credit for (being a shape type name)
From what I see in the line drawings it is incorrect to preface decors with vesuvian.
Hi Alisa
The reference to Venusian was genuine ... though I can't presently substantiate it ...
Have been trying to track down a reference ... but am beginning to wonder if it is a merely a transposition inside my head ... have always been a little more inclined toward astronomy than history ...
The piece (referenced in the previous post on this one) appears to have a more Egyptian / Nile theme - "crocodile skin" and "all-seeing eye" than planetary ...
How well does Jitka's book cover these gold painted / decorated (without enamel underlay) pieces ? The Rubin Matt iridescent pieces are also usually listed as being 1900 + ... Would expect them to be in there ...
Will keep an eye out for the Venusian ...
The Vesuvian is in Cantze in Creta Glatt (and listed only in Creta) ... with 3 up and 3 down "melted glass" tear-drops ... with the glatt it was perhaps a little past it's "use by date" by 1900 ?
yeah, I suspect that Cantz maybe didn't have full access to the line drawings or something or didn't really stop and think about the implications... and that's where the misuse of the name started or something. It's a big book with big implications.. mistakes happen..
Jitka's book is entirely line drawings. all of the available line drawings of 1900-1915 supposedly. Some are destroyed and are not available. But from the descriptions I really have no choice but to think that they associate the name incorrectly with crete glatt with drops as being vesuvian.
I understood you were "discussing" the other view ... that Vesuvian was only to be applied to Creta glatt MIT tropfen ...
Where are we now ?
Do the Vesuvians in the new book have anything in common ?
Got it .... "not all pieces with tear drops are Vesuvian ... " the next thing to look at would be the 3 up 3 down pattern ... although there are some of these (e.g. the gold decorated pieces) which are also probably not Vesuvian ....
Check this out.. it looks like the design in the line drawing
http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/5796902
I think this is the referenced piece not the plain version.
Hi GSO
Would be thinking Violetta with PG Dekor ...
Cheers