Posted 11 years ago
mikelv85
(1232 items)
Found this beautiful little cup today. It only measures 3" wide x 2" high. It has a gilt rim which is mostly there but there is a dip in the rim and it thins out in one spot probably to form a drinking edge. It has translucent leaves around the flowers that let the light shine through. The mark on the bottom seems complex for such a tiny piece. I haven't had any luck with the translation. -Mike-
From 20th Century Forums
www.20thcenturyforum.com
This Chinese rice grain porcelain (also known as grain de riz ware) bowl is made of thin porcelain and has finely carved rice-like holes which are covered with a transparent glaze. This pate dure (hard paste porcelain) is very thin and has hand painted under glaze blue on white decorations with lines and flowers-in-basket motif inside, as well as, a leaf motif surrounding the exterior rim.
Moderators comment:
This has a four character mark but it doesn't look like a dynasty mark. It might be 19th century, but they are still being made today.
This is Chinese actually, you can tell by those those translucent "cut-outs," its called rice-grain porcelain. Looks like a good piece too. I bet you could find the mark on Goth. if you spent enough time
Thanks Still very good to know:)... I was gravitating toward Chinese as well but there was a old antique store label on the inside that said it was a saki cup hence the Japanese ID. The characters did look to complex to be Japanese. Since you agree it's Chinese I'll look at Gotheborg's again under the Chinese marks.
The Japanese language actually has three sets of characters, hiragana and katakana are the simple ones that you're probably thinking of, but the third one, kanji, were borrowed from the Chinese system, so they are technically Chinese characters. You won't ever see hira/katakana in a mark on a Japanese piece though, those are mainly used to spell borrowed foreign words.
Of course.... somewhere in the back of my mind I remember reading that. When you get into seals that's a whole different story. As much fun as it is though most of the time marks tell you very little about the piece but it's still fun to know what they say. I actually prefer unmarked pieces especially if they look old.
Why do you prefer old, unmarked pieces? To me that usually means that the artist was well-known or important enough to sign his wares, like you would sign a piece of art instead of a bowl you made just to drink tea from. I'll take all your old marked pieces! Lol
I guess it's because most marks are either just part of the decoration or sometimes put there to deceive. I like marks on pieces as long as it's not" Made in China" or "not for food use"...lol. My 18th century punch bowl wasn't marked and it was the real deal. Being that it was for export was probably why. No need to sign something you're never going to see in your own country again. The artist was basically a slave working for the European companies at the time. Even though I was pretty sure at the time it was real. I needed experts to look at it. I was told they go by the painting style, the colors used and the porcelain's color and signs of age to authenticate most of the time. It's probably one of the most difficult but interesting things to collect and ID. I love the challenge !
Yeah I'll give you that, there are some great, valuable pieces that aren't signed. The domestic signed stuff is really good, especially when they "paint" the signature instead of just writing it, like my Yabu Meizan bowl.
Definitely, Japanese and especially Chinese ceramics are VERRRRRRY broad and vast. It takes years and years to get good at it, but its a niche area that very few people know because they can't Google kanji characters, and looking up marks is hard. That's the area I'm focusing on right now, for collecting and selling. I want to become an expert on Chinese and Japanese art/ceramics :D
That's why we find the real goodies that most people pass off as imitations or junk. I've always loved Asian art but you never stop learning. I sent my bowl to auction this week for the Spring April 15-30 sale at Lark Mason's Gallery in New York. I'm very nervous. It got there Friday afternoon but I haven't heard anything yet. Guess the gallery is closed on the weekend. It is insured and I watched the UPS store pack it properly but I'm still going crazy not knowing....lol and still another month till the auction !
Ugh... I hate dealing with auction houses.. Its such a pain and they take a big commission. I just found it on your page, its very interesting
What kind of estimate did they give you?
Such an unusual decor to see, an English fox hunt on a Qianlong piece. I guess they made it to appeal to Great Brittain which they were exporting to
I actually made very sure and got three opinions that all agreed. The final one was from Lark Mason the Asian art expert for "Antiques Roadshow" he said in it's present condition 2000-3000 dollars. It's has a crack that was restored probably about a hundred years ago and some of the over painting has started to chip away. That's the dark line in the bottom. If it were perfect 5000 and up !! It was a Goodwill find for 6 bucks ! Bet that will never happen again. I've used up all my thrifing luck on that one piece....lol
Wow, Goodwill.... The one near my house is full of junk. Nice job Mike, put a notch in your belt for this one
I don't trust auction houses ever since that perfume bottle. I had a Lalique piece, from the 1920's, and they gave it an estimate of 1,000-1,200. I put it on eBay and got four times that amount. They lowballed me on that Yabu Meizan piece too. If that piece were mine, I'd put it on eBay at 99 cents no reserve and let the bidding fly.
Exactly.. It would have been made for the European market by an English export company working in China.Some were made to order with a few years turn around and very expensive to have done. It was authenticated as a Famille Rose Hunting Scene Punch Bowl from 1780. Maybe it belonged to someone rich and famous or a founding father .Wish I could prove it but donations at Goodwill are anon. So you'll never know why someone would donate such a valuable piece. The UPS lady packing it for me actually told me it was kind of ugly or garish can you believe that!
I think I know why they donated it... They had absolutely no idea what it was, and thought it was as garish as the UPS lady did.
I was at a sale the other day, saw a pair of HUGE, fantastic cobalt blue Murano glass lamps in the photos, someone had presaled it the day before and got them, but she said that she thought they were the ugliest things in the house and gave them to him for 20 bucks. Probably worth 1,800-2,000...
The first appraisal I got was lower. Only 1000-1500. Mr. Mason's value was higher. He only deals in Asian art so you'll have a dedicated audience bidding. The Chinese art market is very hot right now so it's time to sell. They want their stuff back and are willing to pay for it too.
Yup, they exported cheap stuff for hundreds of years, now its worth a lot more and all the millionaires are buying it back. I remember watching an episode of Antiques Roadshow "Then and Now," where they showed old episodes from the 90's, and you get to see if the appraised value goes up or down, all the Chinese pieces had gone up about 15x to 20x.
One persons trash and so it goes...gotta be there when the opportunity arises.
I found a Rookwood bowl a month ago. The Roadshow apprasial on that was 1000 in 2011. I watched the video online. It's now only 500 and it has a small chip in the edge so halve that again. Only 250 now. So American art pottery is on the decline. Just going to sit on my Roseville and such till it improves.
I can't see Roseville improving... At least for a long, long time. Its been overcollected, there's just tons of it out there, and the new stuff is made in China or something? I think I heard something about that. Can't remember
Its really too bad that art pottery is going down, I like it so much :(
Me too.... but I like Chinese porcelain even more...lol