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Posted 2 years ago
Woodies
(3 items)
Possibly French/German ??
Unmarked but number stamps on movement
Ansonia ??
All wooden case
Copper base plate and ball feet
Would love to know more about it ????
Help us close this case. Add your knowledge below.
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Greetings Woodies. Welcome to Collectors Weekly, Antique Clocks!
In order to help identify your clock, please provide the following:
Any and all information printed, stamped or labeled on the dial, movement, case, pendulum and key. This includes names, trademarks, serial/model/patent numbers and dates.
If working, how often does it need to be re-wound?
Measurements of the dial and case. Please take measurements at the longest, widest, and deepest points only.
Well lit photos of the entire case, with close-ups of the dial, movement and any distinctive decorative feature(s) or labels.
Any provenance information.
This information should be very helpful, but it still may not lead to a definitive model or date. Especially if the clock was manufactured overseas.
Hi Bruce99
Thanks for the welcome
All information will be gratefully received as I only know that is possibly French
Is in working order but no key chimes hourly and on half hour
I can only upload four pictures at a time is there an option for adding more that I don’t know of
Cheers
Phil
Hello Woodies,
I'm going to jump in here with a few details I'm seeing to add to what Bruce99 has suggested. From what I'm seeing here initially, the movement is almost assuredly French, based on some detail of the count wheel and how the back plate is marked, and my guess is the cabinet is not original to the movement, either adapted or possibly shop built to hold the movement at a later date.
Bottom center of the back plate, the marking '9' & '2' separated by the plate post- the standard French manner for indicating the pendulum length in pouce on the left (9) and ligne to the right of the post (2). A pouce is near equal to the inch (pouce=1.066 inch), and the ligne is 1/12th pouce. This brings into play another aspect I noticed in the first pic; from the view of a woodworker, it appears the clock cabinet base plinth may not be original to the upper portion (slightly lighter finish). Because the pendulum length indicated on the back plate is quite long compared to the length used for the majority of drum movements found, it could be that the base of the cabinet needed to be extended to accommodate a longer pendulum drop, and this would explain the perceived change in the wood finish of the base.
Going back to the back plate of the movement, the partially visible numeric stamp center left on the back plate, only seen as '4' in the last pic; this would be the serial number of the movement, which I'm going to guess in full would be '1864', matching the stamp on the pendulum weight (bob). One of the few points in which the French were more consistent about making/leaving a traceable record of origin; the added "companion fitted" components going with a particular movement. While the movement parts and mounting components were being "machine" produced in "standard" sizes during this era, the final assembly and mounting of movements were all being done individually by hand, so there were some variations which made each assembly unique to each other and the need to keep together as one 'unit' when installed to a cabinet. The original pendulum bob, bezel ring, additional dial and open escapement plates used, and even the rear ventilation bezel will often all be stamped with the matching 'serial' number.
Noticed in the third photo, is the back of the dial plate, showing evidence of solder work, possibly a repair, and a stamp of '8(6?)4'. If it is '64', it could be the last 2 digits of the serial, though normally the entire serial is used on each piece. If this plate were not original to the movement, the solder work may have been from need to slightly adjust the post attachment location to better align with the companion location of the post on the front plate of the movement.
Final thoughts/input here, and these are just "IMO" based points:
- My 'sense' is the cabinet was either modified to suit, or hand made (e.g. by a woodworking shop) for use with this movement and, while nicely done, an original wood cabinet of that period would more likely have been fashioned in walnut or more frequently a variety of mahogany. With some exception for use in veneer and marquetry applications, the use of oak was limited to unseen structural/skeletal components.
- Were it original, I don't think the French would have been able to restrain themselves from the urge to further adorn / decorate the cabinet with caps and bases of the columns, garland appliques/ on-lays in brass, and incised decoration around the face and front of the base plinth painted in gold, and columns or the alternate background made of onyx or marble.
Something new I just noticed that brings up a question- Just out of curiosity, Phil, the location of the third photo, the back side of the outer dial plate- is it's location by chance the area right behind the '10'-'11' o'clock area of the dial face? (Wondering if possibly corresponded to the minor damage/loss of marking on the dial face)
That pretty much covers any possible input/answer I might help to provide initially. Nice looking piece, always love seeing a movement with the open escapement, too!
Thanks for sharing-
David
Hello Woodies,
Thanks for posting the additional photos. Four is the maximun number in a single post. Some folks get around that by creating posts 1 of 2 and 2 0f 2 with four photos each, for example. If you have photo editing software, you can also create a single photo from two or more detailed photos. I think that there is a limit on the size (storage) taken up by each photo but I'm not certain.
Your clock's French Count Wheel movement with use of Taper Pins to secure the two plates together, along with it's Brocot Escapement suggests to me that it was manufactured prior to circa 1840 - 1880.
I agree with David that the Oak Case, while very nicely done, doesn't look "French" to me, but that's just my opinion.
I know that there was a huge revival of interest in antique
clocks of all kinds especially after the publication of Wallace Nutting’s
The Clock Book, the 2nd edition of which came out in 1935.
Some clock makers responded to this interest by making period cases and
fitting them with either new or antique movements. Antique French movements were plentiful at that time and were often used. Again, just my opinion/guess
If your clock is for decorative purposes, all is fine and good as is. Lemon oil and beeswax is one of my favorite protective, easy to apply protective polishes. I would advise keeping it away from direct sunlight. If you intend to operate the clock, my advice would be to take it to a well established clock shop for evaluation. They could certainly provide you with a well fitting key. They could likely also provide more information on the possible origins of the clock along with an assessment on its running condition. It may just need to be lubricated, or it may need much more. Rarely does one know what the more recent service history of a newly acquired antique clock is. They are machines and in your case a spring powered one. They need periodic maintenance and repair to be safely operated.
Be forewarned that keeping an antique clock in good running condition can be expensive. A proper servicing can often cost several times the clock's current market value. These types of clocks do have a presence in a home with their "announcement" of the time and their ornate appearance. Some folks think that a clock should be seen and not heard. I'm definitely not of that mindset.
As is, you have a beautiful clock. Thanks again for sharing.
Bruce
Bruce99,Fatrcat
Wow
Thank you so much for all that info and knowledge that you shared I thought the clock was older than the case and yes there is a piece cut out the base for the pendulum to swing so probably added
I did find a mark although I can’t identify it I’ve changed one of the photos to it
Many thanks again I guess my charity shop find was a bit of a bargain then and yes I am going to keep it as a great decorative piece
Cheers
Phil
In consideration of the mark simply being a letter "J" that would indicate it's being a product of one of the Japy Brothers workshops/factories, of which there were a number of variations, e.g. several of the brothers began with shops of their own before joining to become Japy Frerers et cie, which became one of if not the largest and most well known French horologic manufacturers of the 19th century. But I can't say that I've ever seen a mark quite of that design, and would expect if marked on the bezel ring it would be repeated elsewhere. It's also possible that this mark might actually belong to the individual clocksmith who finished the assembly, even while working under the umbrella of a larger company such as Japy. (Some clocksmith's who were considered 'senior' and/or more skilled did at times add a mark of their own if working for a 'parent' company and often later starting their own, or were already established and commissioned or sub-contracted to provide movements for the parent company. )
Well, David obviously know quite a bit about French Clocks and has nicely rescued one from oblivion. I've not seen that mark before either, but I'm mainly a collector of antique American Clocks. There are folks who are much, much more knowledgeable than I am on all things having to do with French Antiques Clocks who can be found here: https://mb.nawcc.org/. It's free to register if your interested in researching further. It certainly couldn't hurt to write up a post there too.
Regards,
Bruce
P.S. Correction: In my earlier post I should have typed "manufactured sometime within circa 1840 - 1880" , not "prior to". I was thinking that the Count wheel strike mechanism would *suggest* pre 1880. The Brocot Escapement would indicate a movement after 1840 but could go as early as the 1820s. If you find a patent date, that would help, as would a photo of the movement's suspension (which would be found at the top of the back plate).
Finally managed to get a picture of some other fine markings cannot find any other stamps and again thanks guys