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Posted 3 years ago
Lornafallace
(1 item)
A couple of paintings bought in approx 1993, from the railings along Bayswater Road, London. Thought to be by a little known artist, Martin Turner. Lots more info on the original Show and Tell #Martin Turner Paintings.
Second image replaced with a brighter photo which include signature and "91". I think "91" refers to the year it was painted. Both paints look to be of the same stretch of street (Regents Street?) but from opposite sides of the road.
The "proper" Martin Turner" thread:
https://www.collectorsweekly.com/stories/2432-martin-turner-painting
Lornafallace, Beautiful. <3
Two more evocative London in the rain paintings. So you bought them circa 1993?
Now I'll make myself crazy wondering what streets they depict. Although, it seems possible that it's the same street, just different vantage points. There's a common element in that cupola. They both have flags, but only one of them seems to be a Union Jack.
Is the one with twin flags the entrance to an embassy? Intriguing.
BTW, there is no "proper" Martin Turner post here at CW, only one very old one on which many have commented, because until you made one, it was the only Martin Turner-related post.
I'll link drchrisstuttle's Martin Turner blog here as well:
https://martinturnerart.wordpress.com/blog-2/
Possibly St. Paul's Cathedral.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Paul%27s_Cathedral#/media/File:St_Pauls.jpg
@drchrisstuttle
Your blog is brilliant, just brilliant. Thank you so very much.
Hi Lornafallace, thank you for posting these lovely paintings I really enjoyed seeing them . I am not an expert but I am 99% sure these are by Martin Turner, the signature is nearly identical to the one on my painting, the difference being my signature is in pen as the painting is a water colour.
Regarding the location questions from Gillian. mine is a similar view and I was told at the time I bought it it was of Regent Street. I think the turquoise dome could be the one on top of Westmorland house on the corner of Heddon St and Regent St with some artistic licence on the size.
@gillian @keramikos @adamh - thank you all for your comments, I'll do some digging on the locations as after all, I am a Londoner so really should have some clue! I have always thought Regents Street but mainly due to the curve which of course, could just be artistic licence. I hadn't appreciated quite how many turquoise domes there are in London until I started just now to look at various streets on google. :-)
I wish I knew whether the person we purchased the paintings from was Martin or, as in the other thread, a friend who sold them on the railings.
Lornafallace and AdamH,
So both of you think your paintings might depict Regent Street.
AdamH, you singled out Westmoreland House as a possibility. I'd looked at that location initially, but dismissed it because there are two verdigris cupolas on that building:
125 Regent St., London W1B 4HS, UK
https://goo.gl/maps/Ujz1rTSkKJZxpZ1g8
However, the next building to the south of Westmoreland House on the corner of Regent Street and Vigo Street has a cupola with a spike on top:
Victory House, 99-101 Regent St., London W1B 4EZ
https://goo.gl/maps/JvxcQ4vq4ctzzq8M9
I thought it was possible, with a certain degree of artistic license, that the vantage point was from the big bend of Regent Street between Piccadilly Circus, and Vigo Street, standing across the street from Victory House, e.g.:
https://goo.gl/maps/qULBDxzgFXTVmJi86
However, there is a lighted intersection in the first picture which looks like it constitutes the definite end of one building, and Victory House is a very long building.
Ugh. I think I'm back to the drawing board.
Lornafallace, I suspect that your two paintings depict two different vantage points of the same basic location.
In the first, the spiked verdigris cupola is on a building on the left hand side of the street (from the viewer's perspective). Beyond it, the next building in the background appears to have an entire roof of verdigris.
In the second picture, the spiked verdigris cupola is on the right hand side of the street, and the building in the foreground looks like it has the verdigris roof.
It could still be somewhere on Regent Street, but I don't know where.
Regent Street isn't all that long, is it?
The Regency House building (at 235 Regent Street) has a cupola, and the next building north has a kind of mansard roof:
https://goo.gl/maps/GvxLxYmaRQ89NYv4A
However, the Regent House building has those large arch-topped windows on the ground level, so that would require more artistic license.
Lornafallace, I hadn't noticed that you'd updated the photos and the post description, and found a date of '91 on the second picture. Sharp eyes. :-)
I decided to take a closer look at your first picture, and I think I see a '92 next to the signature on that one.
I've more than half convinced myself that if these images are of Regent Street at all, then the building with the cupola is number 235 (which currently houses Apple).
In Google Street View, look at the corner window on the top storey of the 235 building. It has a built-up arch structure on top.
You more or less see that in your 1992 painting. Sure, you don't see the big arched windows in front on the ground level, but that could be artistic license.
Something else you don't see in the painting is the brick median strip, but that could be the difference between 1992 and 2022.
The Google Street View history for that location goes back to 2009, and while that segment of Regent Street already had a brick median strip in 2009, it also had a protective railing around it for pedestrians.
By 2012, the railing had been taken down. It's quite possible that in 1992, there was no brick median in that segment of Regent Street. Or, Turner exercised more artistic license, and simply eliminated it.
Same thing with the traffic lights.
So I'm thinking that the 1992 painting is from the vantage point of somebody with their back to Piccadilly Circus (roughly), and the vantage point of the 1991 painting is that of somebody with their back to Oxford Circus.
Lornafallace,
Here are some more tidbits about Regent House, which I suspect is at the center of your 1991 and 1992 Martin Turner paintings:
Regent House was built in 1898, and is one of the oldest surviving buildings on Regent Street. It's also one of the tallest.
The dome/cupola is copper, although nowadays it doesn't seem to have the tell-tale verdigris coloring typical of copper. I don't know if that's the result of a poor cleaning attempt, pollution, or something else.
Some links:
https://www.archiseek.com/2014/1898-t-h-brooke-hitchings-229-247-regent-st-london/
http://www.speel.me.uk/sculptlondon/regentst.htm
https://www.waymarking.com/waymarks/WMKM4K_Apple_Store_Mosaics_Regent_Street_London_UK
https://www.archdaily.com/797835/apple-regent-street-foster-plus-partners
https://londonhuawiki.wpi.edu/index.php/The_Rise_of_New_Design_in_Old_London
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regent_Street
https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Regent_Street
https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/489974
http://www.lightgb.myfreeola.com/xmas/xmas/london/regentstreet/regentstreetchristmaslights.htm
https://www.regentstreetonline.com/200th-anniversary/regent-street-s-past-a-200-year-timeline
https://www.british-history.ac.uk/survey-london/vols31-2/pt2/pp85-100
https://theculturetrip.com/europe/united-kingdom/england/london/articles/the-history-of-regent-street-in-london/
https://salviatimosaics.blogspot.com/2013/01/apple-store-at-235-regent-street.html
Why wouldn't Martin Turner have depicted the big, arched windows at the ground floor level of Regent House? I don't know, really. More artistic license.
AdamH, I await eagerly a posting of your Martin Turner painting. :-)
Looks like Fleet St to me.
Collectables59, Interesting.
Do you have a particular Fleet Street building in mind that has a verdigis dome/cupola?
St .Pauls. Have a look on google images 'views from Fleet Street. The green is more down to the artist but you will see the familiarity. My partner of 28 years who lived and worked on Fleet Street for 35 years spotted it straight away. Neil
Collectables59, I can see that St. Paul's Cathedral is visible from Fleet Street (famously so), but all the views I can find are looking straight down Fleet Street towards the east, e.g.:
https://goo.gl/maps/4Q6iPJnXNackftfT8
What I can't find is a view from Fleet Street that approximates either of the two views in these paintings.
Keep looking it will be there.
Thanks, I was hoping that you'd show me.
If only Martin had included the number on the buses, in his paintings. :-)
@Collectables59 - Fleet Street, (Ludgate Hill end) was my first thought because of the dome but was leaning more towards Regents Street because of the curve. hmmm.
The Bus number would have solved everything ho ho.
Another discrepancy beween the paintings and Google Street View is the street lamps. In the paintings, they look relatively modern.
Here is Regent Street in December 1996 with cast iron street lamps (note the beautiful verdigris of the dome/cupola atop the Regent House):
http://www.lightgb.myfreeola.com/xmas/xmas/london/regentstreet/regentdec1996.jpg
Apparently, the street lamps were replaced 1990 -1992:
*snip*
CHRISTMAS 1996
These Christmas lights are along REGENT STREET and this photo was taken in DEC 1996. The streetlights are wall mounted CU PHOSCO SPACEFLOOD flood lights ( SONT BULBS, Nema socket photocells ) mounted at 12M and these were installed between 1990 - 1992 .On the 10M cast iron posts are post top lanterns with MH BULBS ? and these were installed between 1990 - 1992 .
*snip*
http://www.lightgb.myfreeola.com/xmas/xmas/london/regentstreet/regentstreetchristmaslights.htm
Here is a vendor selling what looks like original Regent Street street lamps:
https://fenori.co.uk/product/regent-street-lights/
Turner could have done his paintings before the replacement.
Or at least took the photographs from which he worked. I hate to think of him sitting outside for hours painting in inclement weather. >8-0
Just for anyone interested in having a look, a walk down Regent Street from a different perspective.
https://lookup.london/regent-street-history-above/
Lornafallace, I took the liberty of using copies of your pictures in this post to create a post of my own comparing them side-by-side with snapshots of Regent Street from Google Street View:
https://www.collectorsweekly.com/stories/304673-lornafallaces-1992-and-1991-martin-turn
If you're not comfortable with that, just say the word, and I'll remove them.
That's fabulous - thank you so much for taking the time!
Lornafallace, You're very welcome. Thank you for being gracious about my use of your photographs. :-)
Gillian, Thank you for adding that link. I'd read and enjoyed it earlier, but somehow failed to add it to the collection of links I put in one of my comments higher up.
Regent Street might be short to my New World way of thinking, but it's chock-full of beautiful architecture.
The stink pipes are a fascinating little corner of British history (I believe you can see at least two of them on Regent Street in the median strip approximately across from number 256).
I did some reading up on them. After they were invented, some other inventor said the 19th century equivalent of "hold my beer," and invented the sewer-powered gas lamp:
https://www.london-walking-tours.co.uk/secret-london/carting-lane-sewer-gas-lamp.htm
Hi again, Lornafallace. :-)
I hope you don't mind, but I deleted your comment (and mine) from my comparison post, because I decided that I wanted to add a list of clickable links, and keep that at the top:
https://www.collectorsweekly.com/stories/304673-lornafallaces-1992-and-1991-martin-turn
Lornafallace, I corresponded with drchrisstuttle, and he agrees that the location for your two pictures is Regent Street, with the Regent House as the central focus.
I kept tweaking my snapshots of Google Street View, but unfortunately, I don't think I've improved the resemblance.
Especially with your 1991 Turner painting, I think it will take a pedestrian photographer to approximate the perspective, because it looks to me like it's the vantage point of somebody who was on the sidewalk on the opposite side of the street from Regent House, perhaps just south of the Oxford Circus Underground Station staircase, almost hugging the corner of the building numbered 264:
https://goo.gl/maps/7uJ87tp88ZZGgNAC6
Here's a pedestrian photo of the Oxford Circus Underground Station access:
https://goo.gl/maps/LqBjqFKR2SyKEDRJ7
Somebody standing next to the corner of the building that in March 2020 housed Ezenis might be in a good position for a photograph.
Oh well. It awaits better weather. };-)
D'oh! [T]ezenis.
Lornafallace,
Martin Turner was a good friend and neighbor of mine in Gillingham in our younger lives over a period of some 30 years. I am now looking to acquire a piece of his work to remember him by and I'm reaching out to anyone who might have an item for sale. I don't know if this is an appropriate forum to say this but your London scene is one that personifies his unique style that I remember. If this piece in not available perhaps you would know of a similar scene that might be.
Hi, woledge7444. :-)
How great that you knew the fabulously talented Martin Turner.
Collectors Weekly Show & Tell isn't a market for selling/buying; however, I don't think the CW S&T police will hunt you down like a dog for a simple, polite request. };-)
Lornafallace seems to be inactive on CW S&T, and doesn't have any contact information in their profile, but they might have elected to get email notification of any commentary on their post, so never say never.
In the meantime, here are some more resources for you to peruse.
One is another CW S&T post in which I took a closer look at Lornafallace's two Martin Turner paintings:
https://www.collectorsweekly.com/stories/304673-lornafallaces-1992-and-1991-martin-turn
Another is the very old CW S&T post of a Martin Turner painting that intially piqued my own interest in Turner's work:
https://www.collectorsweekly.com/stories/2432-martin-turner-painting
Drouot dot com seems to have a Martin Turner painting for sale:
https://drouot.com/en/l/16425945--martin-turner-roi%E7%BA%A620%E4%B8%96%E7%BA%AA%EF%BF%BD
Last but definitely not least, Dr. Chris Stuttle has a blog about Martin Turner and his art:
https://martinturnerart.wordpress.com/blog-2/
He has a contact interface:
https://martinturnerart.wordpress.com/contact/
He might know of some Turner paintings that are available.
Good luck!
Hi keramikos,
Thanks for the wealth of information on Martin Turner. He and I were actually in elementary school together and remained very good friends until I lost contact with him when we were about 35 and living on separate continents at that time. So I knew him for a long time and was very familiar with his work.
I left London and went to work in NY in 1967 and before I went he gave me the original of a pen and ink work of The Pilgrims near Canterbury on a map of Kent. Unfortunately this piece was destroyed when my home was flooded. Later I tried to contact him again and was saddened to learn that he had died.
You can understand why I'm now looking to find something that would be a piece of him to reconnect with the friendship that was lost.