Two Ming Saucers | ||
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Posted 2 years ago
ho2cultcha
(5051 items)
I think that these are Ming Wanli [1563-1620] saucers. I'm not sure the name of this pattern - maybe 'flowering branch'? I think they are also what as known as 'Kraak Ware'. The kiln grit is typical of these wares. What do you think?
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x insert Kyoto Shoin
There are similarities in design and execution on these plates and a temple jar I recently posted. My jar is obviously new but I wonder if it is a copy of the style of your plates? Is the design on your plates in a specific Month style.
https://www.collectorsweekly.com/stories/312589-chinese-temple-jar?in=user
Dang spell check... Month •••••> Ming...
well there are an awfull lot of ming styles from from hongwu 1368-till 1644Chongzhen with a C
This are not typical saucers of Wanli but all the indicators gives it reasonable odds
actually ( i am not an expert on this)IMO the spread is Wanli -Tianqi -and Chongzhen
normally the dominant indicator for WAnli-Foliated panels ( see Rinaldi- WAnli) and the rude blisters on the reverse side
the other questions concerns the temple jar , i don,t see what they to try represent, , i don,t want to be condescending, but IMO it is a type of poetic licence vase
No offense taken, waki. I figured it was a made up design, just wondered if there was any thought behind it or if it was random. These plates are the first thing I have seen that have any similar hand painted elements.
thank you kwqd and apostata. alot of ming wares have very symmetrical designs - which i think are derived from Mongol or Persian designs. I like the assymetrical flowering branches in these bowls. I wonder if they were influenced by Japanese design?
i am always trying to discern Wanli from Chongzhen and Hongwu, etc... Do you think the abundance of kiln grit on the base of one of the bowls points to Wanli?
apostata - what is the reference to the Kyoto shoin?
i don,t known enough about Persian and Mongol design , so you to have learn me
asymmetry, otherwise it get static and dynamic pieches were more loved
influence of japanese------ , no probably not i think , some flowers represents the chinese nobility like the emporer, one emperor was a famous gardener actually and dowager cixi hyped the chrysanthemum and the emperor flower of cause, but for sure the Japanese got a wider spread of type of florals florals
CHongzheng ---- skill cant see the difference beteen tianqi and Chongzheng, no skill
Hongwu got nothing to de with this , the accent is on blossoming of the flower( and bigger on this stuff( and the corrosion is different type of cobalt
KYoto SHoin publishing created an reference book whivh is done two JAPANESE GENIUSES ,actually it is the bible on late ming period
plethora kilngrit, personnaly i think is hard to say, because the heating is probably different between , the foliate plate( bowls, period wise versus the deviations
equationwise it is difficult to say, personnaly i think there is a lot of kilngitt in wanli , which actually it is a little, strange people stick more to an panel foliate obverse - and blister than then to an minyao provincial plate
well it is more actractive to advertise the foliate plate and blister ( see rinaldi )lets say Terengganu shipwreck pieces , because the cheaper pieces you don,t see on highbrow auctionhouses, thats influence the equation , because they flood the flood the market
but i agree with your opinion
actually strange baking flaws , take care this is no damage ! it is obverse--- inside dimpling of the clay and the and with people think are ruptures are actually shrinkage so it is no damage,s all in the game
in the social strafication the not meant to be made for ( SHI= upperclass or scolars even higher up , it is just a nice provincial piece i think ( i hope) ,
IMO wobblers ( not symmetrical bowls Concerning inclination ) are not that expensive)but i like this
Waki
Thank you Waki. There are some key differences between these and my other Ming Wanli pieces. There is no fritting and they feel thicker. They sit very well on a surface - no wobbles. If they appear off-round, i think it's the way i photographed them. I'm wondering whether these are more likely to be transitional pieces - perhaps made for the Japanese market with all the white space. Could be Tianqui or Chongzhen, maybe. I've seen a lot of this separation of the glaze on the underside of the plates - the blistering [more like curdling imo] on other Tianqui/Chongzhen pieces. There is no sign of chatter marks on them either. Could these be ko-sometsuke?